Someone asked, after being told that there were too many pharisees at CF, where the pharisees were. This is the response that happened. I’m not sure how much of this had much to do with me… Ironically, when I posted a copy of this at the forum in question, it was trashed quickly, by someone carefully citing several rules which it may or may not have technically broken.
It is not the individual members, but the corporate structure. An institution can have no conscience; the actions of the institution are not the personal actions of the members. Thus, CF has a position on homosexuality. Not all members, or even all staff, agree with that position. But staff are required to uphold policy. So, if policy hurts someone, then no person can say “It is my fault”, and no one can repent; the harm continues, because there is no one whose conscience can reflect the harm done by the institution.
The institution has lost the fight. While there may be competent arguments in favor of CF’s position on homosexuality, no one has the time or patience to offer them; instead, we are treated to angry outpourings of pure hatred and fear of those different, and discussions showing these for what they are, of course, must be squelched.
CF, as an institution, is failing, because there is no corporate conscience. The individual people who have consciences are obliged to adhere to the rules, no matter the harm done.
Part of this problem is that, quite simply, modern Christendom is split on the question of, say, homosexuality. Any position from “homosexual sex is okay” to “anyone who has experienced temptations towards homosexual sex is necessarily unsaved and cannot be saved” may be found among the staff. (Well, okay, the last is very slightly more extreme than anything I’ve seen someone outright say. But not much.)
But the issue cannot be confronted, and people are unwilling to accept that there is honest disagreement among Christians about how best to interpret the Bible.
More generally, CF is torn between the clear need for some way to deal with conflicts, and the clear failures of specific attempts. Staff are selected for strength of belief, not for discernment or cool-headedness, so many staff members simply cannot moderate a discussion; they inflame instead. Rigid and carefully defined rules are invented to make sure that any warm body can serve as a moderator.
But do we not know what happens when rigid rules are applied instead of spirit? The letter killeth, but the spirit bringeth life.
CF, as an institution, is a Pharisee. The individual members of staff, approached on their own, are by and large good people. But not all of them are called to moderation, and the attempts to account for those who are not have resulted in a network of legalism, as laws are piled on laws.
If you tell people to give charitably, some will give very little, so you have to tell them how much to give, but then some will give exactly that amount and not a penny more. If you tell people to moderate a discussion, some will encourage flame wars, so you have to give them an exact set of rules for “peaceful discussion”, but then some will follow those rules blindly.
Can this be fixed? Maybe. But it must be fixed by adopting Christian principles and ideals.
A Christian community is governed openly. The members of the community are involved in its governance. The leaders are servants, acting on behalf of those they lead; they are not rulers. There should be no special prayer forum for staff to post their segregated prayers in. There should be no private discussions about the faith of members.
Wrongdoing should be confronted privately, then with a couple of witnesses, then brought before the whole group. This is a good technique. It works.
Doing everything in secret does not work.
A Christian community, rather than having detailed and precise rules designed to cover every circumstance, relies on discernment and faith, exiling members, not over a particular failing that they earnestly try to correct, but only for consistently acting in bad faith. How many times shall I forgive my brother? More than seventy times seven.
There are members who have made it clear that they do not accept their duty to their brethren. Don’t waste time trying to test whether or not they step exactly on the tripwire an eighth time. It is not useful. Those who will have no part of community, well, let them go.
But… CF will have to become a Christian community, run as Christians are told to run communities, or it will fail, as any institution like that must. It turns out that this Jesus guy wasn’t just talking out of His ass. There are reasons we were directed to live certain ways. They work. The alternatives, we are assured, do not.
CF is trying to run a community for Christians using the police state as its model. The staff are specially exempt from some of the rules, and have special privilege. They are exalted above the users. Too many of them see themselves as rulers rather than servants.
That CF works at all is a tribute to the power of the Christian approach to community; even a few people devoted to living and serving as Christ taught can make a community viable far past the point at which it would be otherwise.
But CF works, not because of its rules, but in spite of them. When nyj takes back a warning, not because the rule was not broken, but because he feels it is necessary to show grace, he is showing the triumph of mercy over judgment, and ChristianForums is living up to its name.
It is easy to say that ChristianForums has failed. It has. But… This does not mean it cannot be saved. There is always hope. There is always salvation. At any time, you can turn around and say “no, now I will live the life I was called to”. It is always there as an option.
Those of you on staff who have been trying to run a Christian forum, please continue. You may yet save the forum; all things are possible with God.
But please, please, remember that a Christian community does not answer to everyone’s expectations about what you “must” do to run a community. We reject worldly wisdom, because we know better. You do not need the ritualized and systematic exercise of force to run a community fairly. Have your discussions of a user’s abuses openly and let the user participate, and you will find little difficulty establishing who really needs to be banned for assaults on the community, and who is a welcome participant.
Don’t believe me? That’s okay. It’s a ridiculous claim. It’s a ludicrous claim. It is almost, but not quite, as ludicrous as the claim that a Jewish carpenter spoke to His friends three days after He was killed. It is probably about as strange as the claim that bread and wine can become flesh and blood. It is as unbelievable as the notion that turning the other cheek is anything but an invitation to be destroyed.
You have the Bible. You have Galatians. You know what are the fruits of the spirit, and what are the fruits of the flesh. You know which people have striven always to make peace. You know which people have stepped down from staff, or walked away from an argument, in the hopes of making peace, and you know which users (and which staff) delight in causing strife. Make use of this information.
Welcome all who would come and claim the name “Christian”, even if you think their theology is wrong. The Mormons posting at ChristianForums have demonstrated conclusively that they are far better Christians than the people whose perpetual attacks on them are so carefully isolated in the unorthodox theology forum. Let people live lives that you would not yourselves live.
If you can spare a few minutes from arguing over what wood, exactly, was used to make the Cross, perhaps you can bear it a little while. The community can yet be saved. Will you trust Jesus, called the Christ, to guide you in this?
(… ??? who even talks like that? Blar. I’m going to come back in an hour and not recognize half the words in this post. ARGH!)
Comments [archived]
From: Goliath
Date: 2004-12-12 05:44:34 -0600
It brings a smile to my face to see such dissention amongst xians. The more that you xians fight and hate each other, the less energy that you’ll have to spend fighting us.
Onward xian soldiers, onward!
From: Jesse
Date: 2004-12-12 09:45:15 -0600
headdesk I shouldn’t even bother responding to you, but you seem intelligent behind the snarly mask, and I keep thinking maybe you’ll listen.
The only ‘we’ you’re part of, Goliath, is haters. I’m sure you have your reasons for choosing Christians to hate, rather than, say, Muslims, blacks, gays, or the French, but you’re still just a hater. You’re not changing anything, you’re not helping anyone, you’re not doing a single thing to fight the other haters who call themselves Christians. The malice you see when you type the word ‘xtian’ is your own. And the fact that you choose to take it out on the least hateful man I’ve ever met indicates you’re a coward as well. You snipe at Seebs because you know you’re safe. I’d be disgusted with you, but I choose to believe you’re just sorely in need of medication. Whatever goal you think you’re working toward, you’re missing by a mile. You need to re-think it.
I mean, go ahead and fire off a nastygram back at me, because I know you’ll feel you have to, but after you’ve got that out of your system. Seriously. Re-think the whole thing.
From: seebs_lawyer
Date: 2004-12-12 14:30:20 -0600
Bless you, goliath. I pray you have a merry Christmas and a blessed and happy New Year.
From: seebs
Date: 2004-12-12 20:08:42 -0600
Honestly, I sort of agree with Goliath. The more effort those people spend hating or fighting me, the less they have left for everyone else.
But I don’t see where he gets the idea that I’m hating or fighting anyone. I’m trying to help ’em.
From: Goliath
Date: 2004-12-12 20:34:43 -0600
“The only ‘we’ you’re part of, Goliath, is haters."
No, when I referred to “us”, I was referring to atheists. Sorry for not being clear.
“I’m sure you have your reasons for choosing Christians to hate”
Wrong as usual. I do not hate xians. I hate xianity.
“You’re not changing anything, you’re not helping anyone, you’re not doing a single thing to fight the other haters who call themselves Christians."
Newsflash: Neither are you, and neither is seebs.
“And the fact that you choose to take it out on the least hateful man I’ve ever met indicates you’re a coward as well."
LOL…if you think I’m a coward, then have seebs find me irl, or find me irl yourself. I have no problem saying anything to you irl that I’ve said online.
Oh, and I’ve known MANY people who are less hateful than seebs. In fact, almost everyone that I know irl can be described as less hateful than seebs.
“You snipe at Seebs because you know you’re safe."
Wrong yet again. I do so because I find it frustrating that he forgets simple things time and time again (such as the fact that one xian is just as much of a xian as any other xian).
“I’d be disgusted with you, but I choose to believe you’re just sorely in need of medication."
What the fuck do you care?
From: Goliath
Date: 2004-12-12 20:35:23 -0600
“Bless you, goliath. I pray you have a merry Christmas and a blessed and happy New Year."
Ummm…thanks, I guess.
Have a good xmas and New Year’s, yourself.
From: Goliath
Date: 2004-12-12 20:37:17 -0600
“The more effort those people spend hating or fighting me, the less they have left for everyone else."
Precisely.
“But I don’t see where he gets the idea that I’m hating or fighting anyone. I’m trying to help ’em."
Oh please! Stop being so patronizing. You people think that you’re trying to help other people by spewing out your hate-filled dogma, but you’re actually hurting people. Have you ever stopped to think that what you might consider to be “helping” isn’t helping anyone?
From: seebs_lawyer
Date: 2004-12-12 22:03:08 -0600
goliath: “Have you ever stopped to think that what you might consider to be “helping” isn’t helping anyone?"
Yes.
From: Goliath
Date: 2004-12-12 23:05:47 -0600
And what were your conclusions after thinking about that?
From: seebs
Date: 2004-12-13 00:34:48 -0600
I concluded that, in fact, I seem to be helping people. Simply because, in fact, the things I believe do not appear to be hate-filled.
From: Goliath
Date: 2004-12-13 00:44:32 -0600
“in fact, the things I believe do not appear to be hate-filled."
….to you, but not to me.
From: Sarah
Date: 2004-12-13 10:03:10 -0600
Goliath:
Forgive me, please, for interrupting, but I have a few questions that I hope you will answer.
Can you please point out where Seebs is being nasty? I have been unable to find concrete examples.
Also, could you explain to me how he is not being helpful? He has positive suggestions backed by evidence that is valid for this discussion; ie, the recorded words and actions of Jesus Christ and his disciples. He suggests that his fellow Christians on the board read the teachings of their supposed leader, and try to become their own leaders, or, failing that, elect leaders who will temper arguments, alleviate anger, and allow discussion of controversial topics, rather than suppressing it. These seem to me very helpful, reasonable pieces of advice, consistent with the teachings of his leader as well as many other philosophers, and not ‘hate-filled dogma.’
Can you explain why you feel Seebs’s beliefs are ‘hate-filled’? The prior evidence suggests that he is trying to make life pleasanter for people. This is not the action of a hate-filled person, in my experience.
Could you also explain, in contrast, where and how are you being helpful? Where is your constructive criticism? Where the helpful suggestions for positive action? So far I have seen mockery and calls to be silent, voiced in the form of ironic encouragement (ex.: your first post), and bitter, rather off-target replies to criticism and curiosity. Please correct me if I stand in error.
On a more academic level, how do you support your claim that one Christian is as much a Christian as is another? The only relevant criteria I can think of are closeness to Jesus Christ’s teachings and benefit to society. Some Christians and sects of Christianity do follow the teachings of Christ as recorded in the Bible much more closely than others, though translation and interpretation leave a lot of room for error. And despite your issues with Christianity, some sects do benefit society. Many charitable institutions are both Christian /and/ broadminded, and Christians are among the most socially active groups. Disproportionately so. Which is odd, because you’d think more atheists would realize they have a larger stake in the current world than those who believe in an afterlife.
With regards to one of your earlier posts, I do not think Jesse was referring to physical courage. I think that moral courage was meant, the courage to construct something helpful or useful and to defend your position.
Just out of personal curiosity, why do you label yourself Goliath, the terrifying, posturing giant who was supposedly defeated by a small God-guided shepherd boy? It seems ironic, given your stated views.
And on a purely personal level: Please do not claim to be a representative of ‘atheists’ again in my hearing. I do not give you my permission to represent or speak for me. I do not agree with your views on Christianity. I do not like the way you consistently read your own agenda into messages and ignore or intellectualize pertinent points. I do not like your offensive tone. As an agnost/atheist, I believe that it is unlikely that there is a God, but am willing to admit that we have no way to know for sure, and accept that other people believe differently and act in ways that are also helpful to society. I would very much like to see you work through your issues and make a few of the same concessions. I care, because to care is human; you interact with people I know and respect, and therefore you interact with me on some level. We all affect each other by our actions and our words. If you are offensive, I am offended. If you are helpful, I am helped. Therefore it is reasonable to inquire whether you need assistance of some kind, pharmaceutical, psychological, or otherwise.
From: Goliath
Date: 2004-12-13 16:31:20 -0600
“Can you please point out where Seebs is being nasty?"
Well, for one by insinuating that we need “spirits” of laws (whatever the living fuck those are) in order not to die, and that the only solutions to problems are solutions using xian ideals. That’s beyond condescending–that’s downright offensive. And, of course, there are many flame wars that seebs and I have been in in the past (which I won’t bring up now).
“Also, could you explain to me how he is not being helpful?"
By suggesting that a book of hatred and bigotry written by ignorant Bronze-Age goat herders is at all relevant in fixing modern problems.
“He has positive suggestions backed by evidence that is valid for this discussion; ie, the recorded words and actions of Jesus Christ and his disciples."
Unproven assertion that Jesus existed.
“Can you explain why you feel Seebs’s beliefs are ‘hate-filled’?"
Sure. See the bible (or, if you don’t have one handy, go to www.skepticsannotatedbible.com ).
“Could you also explain, in contrast, where and how are you being helpful?"
Could you point out where I claimed to be helpful in this thread?
“On a more academic level, how do you support your claim that one Christian is as much a Christian as is another?"
It’s unbelievably simple. Given a person and a moment in time, either that person is a xian during said moment of time or that person is not a xian in that said moment of time. Period. There is no “kinda xian” or “kinda sorta wishy-washy xian”…a xian is a xian is a xian. It’s just another characteristic function.
“And despite your issues with Christianity, some sects do benefit society."
I begrudgingly admit this, yes…but they seem to do so despite their beliefs.
“Which is odd, because you’d think more atheists would realize they have a larger stake in the current world than those who believe in an afterlife."
Well, it’s as the old saying goes: Leading atheists is like herding cats.
“With regards to one of your earlier posts, I do not think Jesse was referring to physical courage. I think that moral courage was meant, the courage to construct something helpful or useful and to defend your position."
…? Helpful or useful to whom?
“Just out of personal curiosity, why do you label yourself Goliath, the terrifying, posturing giant who was supposedly defeated by a small God-guided shepherd boy? It seems ironic, given your stated views."
To make a long and boring story short: it was my nick from the BBS days of old.
“And on a purely personal level: Please do not claim to be a representative of ‘atheists’ again in my hearing."
And on a purely personal level from me to you: Fuck off. Fuck right off. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200.
Oh yeah, and read, god damn it! If you had bothered to read anything that I’ve written, you would’ve noticed that I had NEVER claimed to be a representative of all atheists. I merely stated that the more that xians fight each other, the less energy they’ll have to fight atheists. I’ve made statements about xians, too…that doesn’t mean that I’m speaking for all xians, or that I am a xian. [rolls eyes]
“I do not agree with your views on Christianity. I do not like the way you consistently read your own agenda into messages and ignore or intellectualize pertinent points. I do not like your offensive tone."
The instant that I give the slightest shit as to what you think of me or my “tone”, you’ll be the first to know. Honest.
“I would very much like to see you work through your issues and make a few of the same concessions."
Which concessions do you think I should make?
“I care, because to care is human”
Why should I believe that you care about me?
“Therefore it is reasonable to inquire whether you need assistance of some kind, pharmaceutical, psychological, or otherwise."
And this would be any of your business because………..?
From: tubby
Date: 2004-12-13 18:47:26 -0600
Seebs, you’re for sure sincere about cf forum. Why not start you own forum and run it the right way?
I would like to join it.
I have a suggestion I bet would solve 90% of whats wrong with most web forums. It would work real well for christians. Assign a mentor to each new member. Coach them (discipleship?) for the first month or first hundred posts. Or have a review every three months. That means you’d have slow growth but quality growth in membership.
I think this is how organizations build a corporate culture including churches. It is also how teens get trained to be mature adults by their parents and teachers. Well on the web we get too many adults who never learned how to be polite and argue. What do you think?
Want to try it, Seebs? What would it take in terms of effort and expense?
From: tubby
Date: 2004-12-13 18:48:36 -0600
Oh yes, I forgot.
Merry Christmas everyone!
From: Jesse
Date: 2004-12-13 19:52:02 -0600
Goliath. Proof that Seebs is not hateful: he responded to you in the manner he did, rather than the manner I am going to. I, unlike Seebs, AM a hateful person. This may be helpful for future reference.
News flash, Frank Castle. Whatever you think you’re taking revenge for, somebody else has it worse and is handling it better. I don’t care if the Pope kicked you in the nads when you were three, you’re still acting like an adolescent shitwit about it. No one will listen to you or respect you until you start using the manners your momma should’ve taught you. And you can stop thinking of yourself as an underdog hero any minute now. I don’t care how boldly you whip out your chopper and take a piss on somebody’s message board, it doesn’t make you a revolutionary.
My previous message was my last attempt to be nice to you. Henceforth you are a buzzing noise and I’m ignoring you. The fact that Seebs won’t ignore you, will keep on trying to talk to you reasonably and calmly forever, is entirely wasted on you. I leave patience to better men; I’m out.
From: Luka
Date: 2004-12-13 20:45:32 -0600
Following this thread is, for the most part, pretty amusing.
I always enjoy the fireworks that ensue when a dedicated adolescent with a chip from the One True Cross on his shoulder encounters and challenges actual thinking people with whom he disagrees.
Here’s a random observation on the character of your typical Atheist(TM) Troll:
Patient and sincere discussion have an amusing effect on this person. Generally his arsenal of debate tactics will be emotional in nature, the result of having one of several sensitive areas pressed.
The reaction to such a trigger is an illogical cornucopia of pent-up indignation. This person will be absolutely staggering under the imaginary burden of his own insulted pride. He’ll see attacks from all sides and will have a special love for semantics.
All very entertaining stuff, especially against the contrasting backdrop of rationality that inevitably meets the attack with a nonplussed “Okay then, you have fun down there."
He’ll say the most interesting things and all arguments will be geared to prove that he is, and has been since his brave debut on the forum, a victim. The flamer and his imaginary army of backers finally become martyrs when they’re defeated in the end, the people he’s arguing with get to wonder why there’s no IQ test for the internet, and everyone is happy.
This kind of debate is largely paranoid in nature, and usually motivated by a need to win some imaginary battle with an archetype enemy (watch carefully for the flamer’s attempts to shape the enemy into this iconic symbol).
I usually blame this on lack of attention from a parent, or perhaps the person has recently escaped some kind of religious background and needs to show the world his displeasure.
Whatever the cause, you end up with a Very Angry Young Man who cannot by his nature listen to reason–because Reason might be out to get him just like everyone else is (here I pause so you viewers at home can insert the requisite string of exclamation marks and numbers).
Paranoia occasionally proves to be a great motivator of negative social change, but somehow I feel nobody can be harmed by this particular case. He seems harmless enough.
From: seebs
Date: 2004-12-13 20:52:41 -0600
Honestly, while I share Luka’s frustration with “atheist trolls”, I’d have to object to Goliath being considered one. He’s not a teenager, and he’s not an idiot. In fact, if you talk to him about something other than religion, he’s an incredibly cool guy to talk to; his rant on the topic of Best Buy’s attempts to pitch a subscription to Entertainment Weekly was absolutely perfect.
What is it, about Goliath and religion? I don’t know. I assume he’s seen some of the bad shit, the stuff that people do when they’re so proud of their newfound belief that they’re special that they haven’t even stopped to hear the part where the guy up at the podium says everyone else is special too.
Are we all Christians? Yeah. That doesn’t mean we all do, or believe, the same things, or that we support each others’ activities.
But… I dunno. It just seems unfair to beat on the guy. Is he picking a fight? I guess he is. But… From everything I’ve seen, while I don’t know exactly whom he’s retaliating against, someone out there started this fight. And I know that retaliating against Goliath won’t do a damn thing to change it.
So, figure out who it was that started this, and go have a talk with [b]that[/b] guy. Maybe it’ll help.
From: Luka
Date: 2004-12-13 23:07:42 -0600
Argh, you Christians and your irritating habit of forgiving people and giving them the benefit of the doubt.
Good point though. Heh.
From: Goliath
Date: 2004-12-14 08:34:46 -0600
Jesse,
My name is not Frank Castle (I don’t even know who that is). Yes, it’s quite obvious that you’re a hateful person, and I don’t recall you ever trying to be in any way, shape, or form nice to me.
Luka,
For once, seebs is right: I am not a teenager, and I am not a troll. If you believe that my arguments have nothing to do with reasoning, then it shouldn’t be at all difficult to refute them, now should it?
seebs,
I appreciate the kind intent, but you are still being incredibly condescending…I do not hate xianity because someone abused me in the past. How many fucking times do I have to repeat myself?
And whom am I retaliating against? Isn’t it obvious? Haven’t you been listening?
Everyone,
Whether you believe me or not, one of the main reasons why I keep a tenth of an eyeball on this blog is because seebs intrigues me…he’s the only person I “know” who can seem to be a wonderful human being one minute, and then turn into a hateful, spiteful person the next.
So, I’m just here out of curiosity…to figure out why seebs is like that (Note, seebs, that unlike you, I will not condescend to assuming to know a reason for said condition).
From: seebs
Date: 2004-12-16 06:21:59 -0600
(FWIW, I fixed the cut and paste error in this.)
Well, that’s an interesting question. My experience of it is that I’ve always been sort of mean, but I’ve gradually been adopting a set of beliefs that tell me that being mean is bad. So, I try to do less of it.
But, curiously, in my case, Christianity is closely tied to the non-hateful part.
From: IE
Date: 2004-12-16 15:49:03 -0600
Goliath, you throw around the ‘hate card’ an awful lot, but your posts are filled with more than I’ve ever seen in an equivalent space.
You appear to take offense at even the assertion that a God exists, or that the Christian way is positive. No one needs go further than that to get a seething, vehemient reaction out of you.
And that sir, betrays defensiveness, fear, and hate. It is not condescending, insulting, or hateful to “assume” that there was or is suffering linked to it; rather, deductive reasoning would make it a good hypothesis.
From: Goliath
Date: 2004-12-16 16:19:15 -0600
“Goliath, you throw around the ‘hate card’ an awful lot, but your posts are filled with more than I’ve ever seen in an equivalent space."
[raises eyebrow] I wasn’t aware that emotions took up physical space…
“You appear to take offense at even the assertion that a God exists”
Then your perceptions are incorrect.
“, or that the Christian way is positive."
I have no idea what you mean by that.
“And that sir, betrays defensiveness, fear, and hate."
As Meatloaf would say, one out of three is pretty bad…
“It is not condescending, insulting, or hateful to “assume” that there was or is suffering linked to it”
And I think you’ve just won the “Most nonsensical sentence that I’ve read all day” award. Congratulations!
From: Goliath
Date: 2004-12-16 17:02:28 -0600
“Well, that’s an interesting question. My experience of it is that I’ve always been sort of mean, but I’ve gradually been adopting a set of beliefs that tell me that being mean is bad. So, I try to do less of it.
But, curiously, in my case, Christianity is closely tied to the non-hateful part."
On second thought, sorry IE…I can’t give you that award, after all.
From: justaman
Date: 2004-12-23 22:51:32 -0600
Sorry for coming in late, but Goliath, your contempt is aimed at the wrong guy ;) You accuse seebs of being condescending, and yet you insist on calling it ‘xianity’ is if by not saying ‘Christianity’ you are somehow bringing down the man :P HIGH FIVE
I daresay I’m as staunchly atheist as you, and I know few people I tend to agree with and empathise with more than seebs. I certainly wouldn’t bother poking any pathetic observations about his belief system without some background knowledge. Seebs may support you and say ‘Goliath is a cool guy, team’, but that’s really just his warm, loving, Christian values coming through. I’m an atheist and don’t have such values. I’ll be watching for you on free-thought ;)
SEEBS
Do you know if anyone from CF has read this? I’m talking specifically about Erwin here. I’ve only encountered him a couple of times, but he seems to me to be very open-minded. He also, I think, likes to let the forum run itself but then he has taken affirmative action himself. He was the one who personally put a stop to that age-limit debacle we went through a few months back, you’ll remember I’m sure.
Anyhow, great stuff on this site! Much to look at. See you on the beach.
From: Goliath
Date: 2004-12-24 17:24:18 -0600
justaman,
“Goliath, your contempt is aimed at the wrong guy”
You are welcome to prove this at your convenience.
“yet you insist on calling it ‘xianity’ is if by not saying ‘Christianity’ you are somehow bringing down the man”
Wrong. I use “xianity” merely as an abbreviation for “Christianity”. Don’t like it? Tough shit. Blame the Greeks, not me.
“I know few people I tend to agree with and empathise with more than seebs."
That is your problem, not mine.
“I’ll be watching for you on free-thought."
[raises eyebrow]…is that supposed to be a threat, little man?
From: Goliath
Date: 2004-12-25 00:07:04 -0600
Actually, I take part of my most recent reply back. I have no real contempt for seebs, only xianity.
From: Peterseebachsconscience
Date: 2005-06-03 11:24:29 -0500
Has this ever happened to you? You give a warning to someone about a false teacher like Peter Seebach who denies one or more foundational doctrines of the Christian faith. Rather than listen the person gets angry. He begins to quote the Bible as he give you a rebuke. You are told that it is wrong to judge because the Bible says … judge not lest you be judged. The person then snubs his nose and goes on with their life and continues to listen to the false teacher like Peter Seebach.
He would rather embrace homosexuality instead of Jesus.
Over the years I have heard one verse in the Bible misquoted more than any other verse. That verse can be found in Matthew chapter 7 verse 1: Judge not, that ye be not judged. People use that verse to excuse and defend all kinds of evil. People are literally attacked and called all kinds of nasty names because they dared to warn about something that is wrong and sinful before God.
This is a very sad example to illustrate that fact. I had that verse used recently against me by someone who wished to defend their use and enjoyment of the occult. This person loved Homosexuality and thought I had no right so say that it was evil and an abomination before the Lord. This person quoted Matt 7:1 to me and then said I was wrongly condemning and judging all kinds of people because of my stand on homosexuality. Little did this person realize they were misquoting the Bible and showing their sin-loving and blackened God rejecting heart as they attempted to correct me by twisting the Bible. All this person tried to do is to justify their love of the Homosexuality. They loved Homosexuality more than Jesus. They had no intention on giving up evil and repenting before the Lord.
Homosexuality is very evil and there is no excuse for anyone who belongs to the Lord to be involved in it. Only a Christ rejecting heart could love the sin of homosexuality. Sadly I have heard Matt 7:1 misquoted to justify all kinds of sin and false teachers. Believe me, homosexuality is only one of the many ways I have heard Matt 7:1 misquoted to justify sin and false teaching.
In this article we will address the issue about judging. Does Matt 7:1 really mean that a Christian should never judge anything? Are people rightly quoting the Bible when they forbid people to judge? Should Christians accept all kinds of sin and evil because it is wrong to make any judgments about right and wrong? Should false teaching be allowed to go unchallenged because it is wrong to judge? Should Christians support wolves and false teachers and attend liberal doctrine denying churches because they are not supposed to be judgmental. Is judging evil and false teaching also being unloving, narrow-minded, legalistic, or a Pharisee?
These issues are before the truly saved Christian today in these last evil days before the return of the Lord Jesus. It is hoped that this article will encourage and build up God’s people so they will fearlessly defend the faith from all attacks from the devil and his children. The devil’s crowd loves to use Matt 7:1 out of context as evil is prospering in these last days before the return of the Lord Jesus. Don’t be deceived! Stand against and judge evil because Christians are commanded to do so!
WRONGLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH
Lets start by looking at the verse that is constantly being misquoted in its proper context:
Matt 7
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
The above verses are addressed to a hypocrite who went around judging people of doing evil when he was doing the same things. Just look at verse 3 and 4. Do not judge another person before judging yourself. A good example would be a bank robber. A person who robs banks for a living should not go around judging other people who robs banks. How about this real-time example. Remember the TV evangelist who judged another TV evangelist for sleeping with another women then paying her hush money. The first evangelist was seeing prostitutes while he was judging the other TV evangelist! Only a hypocrite would judge another person while he is guilty of doing the same thing! This is why the above verses first tell a person to judge themselves. Once that is done, one can judge and help others. In its proper context Matt 7:1 does not say it is wrong to judge. Instead it is saying to first judge yourself!
In order to understand Matt 7:1 the entire context must be read. Most people quote verse 1 and ignore the rest of the verses. There is a name for taking a Bible verse out of context. That word is called twisting the Scriptures. Misquoting Matt 7:1 is perverting the Scriptures. Taking a verse out of its setting and building a doctrine around it is deceptive and not rightly dividing the word of God! When one looks at verses 1 - 5 it can be easily seen that we are to judge things.
Let me repeat myself. Verses 1 through 5 gives a foundation rule for judging. The rule is this: First judge yourself before judging another. There is nothing wrong with judging as long as you have first judged yourself!
People use Matt 7:1 out of context to justify evil and things that God hates. By ripping verse 1 out of context professing Christians (tares) justify the occult, rock music, false religions, and heresies. Wrongly using Matt 7:1 to justify evil is one of the great deceptions of these last days. Don’t be tricked by those who misquote that verse!
Below is another example of a hypocrite who judges others while they are guilty of doing the same thing:
Rom 2
1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
These verses go along with the verses quoted in Matt 7:1-5. It is very important for a person to first judge themselves to make sure they are not guilty of the same sins.
Here is another verse where the Lord commands His people to judge themselves:
2 Cor 13
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
All the above verses do not forbid judging sin or false teachers. The only admonition given is to judge yourself so you are not a hypocrite.
Next lets move on and look at more detail at what the Bible says about judging.
WE ARE COMMANDED TO JUDGE
God expects and commands His people to judge false teaching and to reject wolves and false teachers. Read the below verses:
1 Cor 6
1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
Look closely at the above verses. Verse 1 indicates that issues are to be brought to the saints of God for judgment.
Verse 2 gives a hint of our future lives and position in Christ. God’s people will be assisting in judging the world. Because of this fact God expects His people to make judgments within the local assembly of believers.
Verse 3 and 4 goes on and states that one day we will make judgments concerning the angels of God. If this is so then we are more than qualified to make judgments regarding issues in this life! Verse 5 states that the wise will be able to judge between good and evil. Those who cannot or will not judge are not wise.
1 John 4
1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
The above verse is a command to God’s people. We are commanded not to believe every spirit. This means do not believe every wind of teaching you hear. We are commanded to “try” or test the spirits. This means we are to test all teaching with the Word of God. This will allow God’s people to see if the teaching is from God or not. By testing the for a false prophet, judgments must be made between right and wrong doctrine.
A further warning is given that many false prophets and teachers are in the world. These false prophets will be teaching and spreading heresies that deny the foundations of the Christian faith. God’s people are commanded to:
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do not believe all that you hear
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put all teaching to the test. This means use the Bible to judge if the teaching is true or not! Use the Bible to judge between true and false teaching.
Eph 5
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
God’s people are to prove what is acceptable unto the Lord. This involves making a judgment between right and wrong. We prove the teaching is true or false by using the Bible as our guideline.
Verse 11 says we are to reject and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness. This also involves judging between right and wrong. As a result of our judgment we are to have no fellowship with evil.
Finally in verse 11 we are told to reprove evil. This means we are to openly oppose and reject evil works and teachers. Once judgment has been made we are to publicly expose and reject false teaching and false teachers.
Remember this is a command to judge and to reprove false teachers and their teachings. Disobedient people who tolerate evil will refuse to judge it. Instead they will misquote Matt 7:1 and say: “Don’t judge”. Beware of such people!
Rom 12
9 Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
One must judge evil to abhor it. Judgment must be made to determine evil and to determine good. Once that judgment has been made the above verse commands God’s people to abhor the evil. This means to reject and have nothing to do with that which is evil.
1 Thess 5
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
Above is another command to judge and reject evil. God’s people prove (test) all things with the Holy Bible. As a result of judging between good and evil we are commanded to hold fast to the good while abstaining from evil.
John 7
24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
God’s people are commanded to make judgments. The above verse commands the use of righteous judgment. Righteous judgment has the following characteristics:
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First the person judges himself so he is not a hypocrite
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The Bible is used as the foundation of right vs wrong.
JUDGING EVIL EXPOSES SATAN’S SERVANTS AND PROTECTS GOD’S PEOPLE
Judgment is essential for the spiritual health of the Christian or the local assembly. Once evil or false teaching is judged, it is to be rejected and removed.
Rom 16
17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
False teachers deny the foundations of the Christian faith. They seek to cause divisions and create offenses. God’s people are to identify false teachers and avoid them. By avoiding the false teacher a person is protecting himself. Do not attend a church where the pastor is a false teacher or where false teachers are accepted. By marking (judging) the false teacher, a Christian can then avoid the wolf. This is a command and is given for the protection of God’s people.
Verse 18 illustrates how evil and dangerous the false teacher really is. By judging the false teacher, they can be easily marked, avoided, and rejected. Only simple and foolish people refuse to judge and as a result they are easily deceived by wolves and false teachers. In fact, people who refuse to judge evil are simple minded people! Just look at verse 18 above! Wolves are able to deceive the hearts of the simple minded.
1 Cor 5
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
If a professing Christian is doing evil he is to be judged from within the Christian church. Part of that judgment is to cast the wicked person from your midst. Christians are commanded to make judgments against evil and evil doers. Verse 12 commands Christians to judge them that are within. This means we are to judge those who profess to be Christians. If they are deceivers then they are to be rejected.
2 Thess 3
14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
Here is another command to judge. If a person does evil he is to be disciplined. Judgment is required. If the situation deserves it, God’s people are to have no fellowship with that person. The goal is to admonish him so he will turn away from whatever evil he has been involved in. The secondary goal of casting out a wicked person is to protect God’s church assembly from corruption by a wicked person.
2 John 1
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
Verse 7 above warns that there are many deceivers in the world. These deceivers deny the Lord Jesus Christ. They deny His deity (Jesus is God manifest in human flesh). They deny the Trinity and other foundational Christian doctrines.
Verse 10 and 11 clearly call for judgment and action taken against a deceiver and a false teacher. They are not to be invited inside the Christian church. In fact, they are to be judged and cast out!
Here are some other points made about judging:
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those who refuse to judge are encouraging evil
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those who refuse to judge are assisting thhe evil doer.
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Those who attend and support liberal churcches are supporting and encouraging evil.
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Every penny given to a deceiver, a liberall church, or the ministry of a wolf and false teacher is to encourage and prosper evil. It is being a partaker with Satan in the attack against God. Christians really need to make sound Biblical judgments so they can reject wolves and their ministries. Do not support them in any way!
Rev 2
2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
When God’s people judge evil doers they soon find they do not want them in their midst. Judging evil results in evil being removed. When a person and his doctrine is judged by the Word of God, they can be easily found to be liars and self-centered deceivers! Those people are to be rejected.
1 Cor 10
14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
Idolatry is a very evil sin before the Lord. By using righteous judgment, God’s people are able to discern the evil and to flee from it.
Verse 15 indicates that the wise will use judgments. Wise men do not blindly accept every wind of teaching. A wise person compares teaching with the Word of God and then rejects the evil and accepts the good. Wise servants of God judge all teachings and teachers by the Word of God. Foolish people and deceivers quote Matt 7:1 out of context and they justify evil.
2 Tim 3
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
In the last days there will be terrible conditions on the earth. Guess what? We are in those last days right now! Judgment concerning evil is needed so Christians can turn away and reject evil. Without judging good from evil a Christian cannot discern and turn away from a deceiver. Remember, the simple minded refuse to judge and are easily deceived!
Matt 7
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
This is another warning about the numbers of false prophets in the world. There will be many of them and they will be like a wolf dressed up like a sheep. This means they will look like a Christian. They will sound like a Christian and they will want you to believe they are Christian. However, they are false teaching liars and wolves. These men are phonies who are just servants of Satan. Judgment is required to spot and reject these wolves.
The above verses tell God’s people to look at the fruit produced in their lives. But if a person refuses to judge…
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How can a person beware of a false prophett if he refuses to judge?
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How can one know good fruit from bad fruitt if they refuse to judge?
Let me repeat myself. False Christian tares and the simple minded refuse to judge!
2 Thess 3
6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
This is another command to judge and to withdraw oneself from a false brother who professes to be a Christian. Judgment is required to spot such an individual. But, how can a person withdraw from a someone who walks disorderly if one refuses to judge?
Eph 5
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
The goal of a wolf and a deceiver is to lead people astray. They are very successful in their tactics against simple minded people who refuse to judge evil. Notice that the wolf will use vain words. This means they will be a wolf in sheep’s clothing. They will look very good and sound very Christian. However, their false teaching can be easily spotted by those willing to judge evil using the Word of God as the foundation! On the other hand, a person who refuses to judge can easily be deceived.
WE ARE EXPECTED BY GOD TO JUDGE
We can already see the trend of judgment from the many verses previously discussed. But it is very important to bring forth this point. God expects His people to judge evil. God expects His people to judge between good and evil. After, God expects His people to reject the evil and to accept the good!
Psalms 37
30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment.
A wise Christian is one who makes righteous judgments. Judging between good and evil is a very big part in a Christian’s life.
2 Cor 6
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
In order to obey the above verses it is assumed that God’s people will judge and reject evil. In order to reject and come away from the evil thing, Godly judgment must first be used. Once something has been determined to be evil it is then easy to “come out” from it. Verse 17 above is a command to God’s people. In order to obey the command it is assumed that God’s people will exercise righteous judgment to determine what is good and what is evil.
Amos 5
14 Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the LORD, the God of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken.
15 Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph.
The foundation of a long and happy life that pleases the Lord is to discern between good and evil and then to cling to the good. Being skilled in judgment is required to protect yourself and your loved ones from the many snares of the devil.
EXAMPLES OF JUDGMENT
There are many examples in the Bible of Christians who judged righteous judgment. Below are a few examples.
Acts 8
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the LORD for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
In the above verses Peter judged a greedy and an evil man. He was confronted and challenged concerning his evil. Above Peter directly confronted this wicked man who loved money and power much more than he loved God. When Peter confronted this man he was obeying God. Today in this liberal world people would be quoting Matt 7:1 out of context and calling Peter narrow-minded, judgmental, unloving, and a Pharisee.
Here is another example where a man married his stepmother. At first the Church refused to judge this man. Paul however judged him for his great sin.
1 Cor 5
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father’s wife.
2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
The above sexually immoral man was judged for his sin. Paul rebuked the Christians of that church for not taking action and judging this wicked man. Paul stressed that it was very important to judge the wicked and to cast them out from their midst. The wicked man was to be cast out of the church assembly because of his sin. This was for protection of God’s people. We cannot embrace and tolerate evil lest we get infected by it. Paul discerned between good and evil and then he took action.
Acts 17
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
12 Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few.
Notice what the Bereans did after hearing the Apostle Paul teach. Did they blindly receive everything he said? No, verse 11 states that they searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. What they did was to listen to Paul and then go the the Bible to check him out. They checked what God had already revealed with what the Apostle Paul was saying. Did Paul get angry because they didn’t take everything he said blindly? Today the men who have blind followers get very angry when their teachings are compared with the Scriptures. However Paul didn’t get angry…. have a look at verse 11. Scripture says that they were considered ‘more noble’ than those in Thessalonica because they took the time to ‘check out Paul’ with the Word of God. It is a good, noble, and Christ honoring thing do to by checking out teachings by the Scriptures! It also is good protection from deception. Isn’t that different from the reaction of the wolves. If anyone puts them or their teaching to the test today, the wolves get very angry! They scream out Matt 7:1 (don’t judge) or they scream out not to touch the Lord’s anointed. (really they are Satan’s anointed). Paul on the other hand welcomed people to check out his teaching with the Word of God. Paul did not get angry because he was a faithful servant of God and had nothing to fear when a person checked him out with the Word of God. Beware today of wolves! They get very angry when their false teachings are judged by the Word of God!
The bottom line is this: don’t accept teaching if it doesn’t line up with Scripture. The Word of God is the standard and the final authority. If some slick talking false teacher starts spewing out various doctrines that don’t line up with God’s Word, then reject the deceiver and his teaching! Don’t tolerate false teachers - reject them and their soul damning teachings. Do not listen to the deceivers and simple minded who misquote Matt 7:1 and say: Don’t judge.
Are people doing that today? Who is turning to the Word of God to see if what is being taught by various ‘super teachers’ agrees with Scriptures? Are people putting teaching to the test OR are they just blindly soaking every wind of doctrine into their brains like a dry sponge looking for water? Unfortunately the latter seems to be true. There are many simple minded people who think it is wrong to judge between good and evil. Such people are wide open to Satanic deception. Sadly in these last days, deception abounds just like the Lord Jesus warned. Who is listening to the warnings? Who is a Berean that checks out doctrines and teachings with what God has already revealed in God’s Word, The Bible? I would hope that many reading this tract are wise and use righteous judgment!
MATURE CHRISTIANS ARE ABLE TO JUDGE
Baby Christians who have been recently saved need to get a solid grounding in the Word of God. This is done by daily Bible reading and attending a Church assembly that teaches and upholds solid Biblical doctrine. Christians who have matured in Christ are able to use the Bible to discern between right and wrong as verse 15 describes below.
1 Cor 2
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
Lost people cannot understand the things of God because they are spiritually discerned or spiritually dead. Their main need is to repent of their sins and to accept the Lord Jesus as their Saviour. However, Christians are more than able to make Godly judgments between things that are good and things that are evil. Christians are filled with the Holy Spirit and have the Word of God and are able to make Godly judgments.
Malachi 3
18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
Above is a Old Testament verse that describes that God’s people will be judging. One form of judgment is to know who is serving God and who is not serving God. The wolf and false prophet are greedy, money hungry, power seeking individuals that are serving themselves and Satan. These people are to be exposed and rejected by God’s people. Evil is to be rejected and not accepted in the name of peace and love.
Heb 5
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Mature Christians are able to discern(judge) between good and evil. The above verses show how they are able to do this. The foundation of Godly judgment is the Word of God. The mature Christian knows God’s Word and loves the Lord. As a result he is able to apply Godly principles and teachings to discern between good and evil. It is expected of God’s people to judge and reject evil!
1 Cor 2
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Godly judgment does not use man’s wisdom to discern between good and evil. That would be pointless as lost men have embraced beliefs of atheism and godlessness. By using the Word of God it is possible to compare spiritual things with spiritual and make sound Biblical judgments.
CONCLUSION
I would hope that after reading all the verses presented that the question of judging should be forever settled. You should be able to spot a tare of a simple minded person misquoting Matt 7:1 as they seek to accept evil things. Godly judgment is required in these last days. Deception is one major characteristics of the last days in which we are now living. God warned several times in His Word to beware of false teachers and Satan’s servants that try to come across as angels of light. By using Godly Biblical judgment, these servants of Satan can be spotted, exposed, and rejected.
Sadly there are many today who refuse to judge. They misquote the following verse as a way to avoid confronting evil.
Matt 7
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Many people seek to excuse evil and heresy by misquoting the Bible using Matt 7:1 by itself. Understand that such a person does not know what they are talking about. They are taking one verse out of context and ignoring the verses following Matt 7:1. In this article we covered the bigger picture. When Matt 7:1 is read in the proper context of Matt 7:1-5 a different conclusion is made. God expects His people to judge but it is very important to judge oneself first.
Sadly today many excuse evil by refusing to judge it. These people have become servants of Satan as they assist him spread his lies unhindered. Evil should be rejected and avoided. Instead many misquote Matt 7:1 and then continue in their acceptance of evil. This type of godless attitude no surprise to God. He has warned His people that in the last day many will give heed to the teachings of demons. Read the following:
1 Tim 4
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
In verse one the Holy spirit speaks expressly. This means He is trying to get your attention to illustrate a point. We are now in the last days or the latter times. In these last days there will be some people who will depart from Biblical truth and accept the doctrines of devils. Do not be surprised when it happens. When people excuse evil and misquote Matt 7:1 they are part of the fulfillment of the above verses. Such people who refuse to judge evil have embraced doctrines of devils.
2 Tim 4
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
This tract closes with the above verses. God’s people are commanded to learn God’s Word. As a result they are to preach, teach, rebuke error, and exhort with sound Biblical doctrine. God’s people are commanded to judge sin and evil.
In light of these truths there will be many people who will refuse to endure sound Biblical doctrine. People who misquote Matt 7:1 and who refuse to judge evil have fallen away. These people cannot endure sound Biblical doctrine as they have no heart for the things of God. These people love to hear teachers but they reject sound Biblical doctrine. As a result they will become deceived as they believe in the lies and fables of the devil.
I certainly hope, reader, that you are not such a person! I would encourage you to stand fast in the Word of God. Judge and reject evil as you stand fast in these last days.
Peter Seebach embraces evil and calls it good. Can he be delivered? Yes, God can save anyone he chooses too.
From: seebs
Date: 2005-06-03 14:11:21 -0500
The comment with the anonymous name, forged email address, submitted through an anonymizer, and consisting mostly of material stolen without attribution from Alan Yusko, is not representative of my conscience. Were I to post such theological tripe, I would at least edit out the typos and give attribution to the original author.
From: HAHA
Date: 2005-06-03 15:05:31 -0500
Peterseebachsconscience you are an idiot, get a life you fool. I can’t believe you wasted your life slamming your elbows on the keyboard. People like you make me laugh.