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Yesterday at 11:41 PM Sin of Man said this in Post #74 Here are my results: 1. Unitarian Universalism (100%) 2. Secular Humanism (98%) 3. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (89%) Don't understand this 4. Liberal Quakers (87%) 5. Theravada Buddhism (72%) 6. Nontheist (71%) this should have been 100% imo

Good, someone's back on topic.
So, Sin of Man, when will you start attending the UU Church?


LOL

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Today at 02:01 AM Outspoken said this in Post #80 "I went off into the wild blue ranting about something we weren't talking about," Exactly. prooftexting at its best. another context lesson for ya In all seriousness though, you were going off into the wild blue. I was refuting what you stated, and you started ranting because you like to argue and poke at people in a mean way. You can back peddle all you want seebs, its not going to work. So you need to stop ranting about irrelevant topics then or arguing with people just to argue.

Huh? That's just a massive snip of context.

What I stated was something about Jews in the present tense, and their beliefs. You have not refuted that; you've talked about Biblical-era Jews, and offered a refutation of their beliefs. However, I was never talking about Biblica-era Jews, and I never said their beliefs were true.

It seems to me that you responded, not to my claims, but to unrelated claims. My original claim, way back there in that first post, seems to still be true - there are lots of Jews out there who believe in reincarnation, and there are passages which they interpret as supporting this belief. I never made any other claims, and the only ones I made remain unrefuted.

Any discussion you may have had about Biblical-era Jews is irrelevant, and seems to me to be the "wild blue" you were talking about. No one but you ever raised the question of Biblical-era Jews, and it was completely irrelevant to any claim I ever made.

"That's just a massive snip of context."

Yeah, you do it a lot, though you would appricate the humor.


"However, I was never talking about Biblica-era Jews, and I never said their beliefs were true.
"

So you began to argue and rant just to argue and rant. That's what I said before. Its pretty mean and a bad habit, one of the reasons I pointed it out. So please stop ranting about things in a mean way just for the purpose of arguing with someone.

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Today at 02:10 AM Outspoken said this in Post #83 "However, I was never talking about Biblica-era Jews, and I never said their beliefs were true. " So you began to argue and rant just to argue and rant.

No. I made the claim that some modern Jews believed in reincarnation. You said (post #33):

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not this again. If you look in the context and use some common sence you can see reincarnation is NOT something jews believe in.

Now, this statement is false; there are Jews who believe in reincarnation. I corrected you, and in post #42 you said:

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Nooo.....lol They don't, well at least not in biblical times, therefore any biblical passage cannot be about reincarnation.

However, this has nothing to do with my claims. Since then, all we've been discussing is whether or not my original claim involved Biblical Jews. I say it didn't, and that it's obvious (from the use of the present tense) that it didn't. You have repeatedly claimed that you have proven me wrong, but the things you've argued against were not the things I said.

So, I argued, not "just to argue", but because it appeared that you had a misunderstanding of my position, and I wished to find out where I'd said something that could have been so misinterpreted, so I could correct it. So far, I don't see any evidence that anything I say could easily be misinterpreted; it looks like you just jumped into claims about Biblical Jews, for no obvious reason.

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That's what I said before. Its pretty mean and a bad habit, one of the reasons I pointed it out. So please stop ranting about things in a mean way just for the purpose of arguing with someone.

If you could point out where I've been mean, I'd appreciate it, because I'm trying to stop being mean to people.

My sole goal here has been to correct your misunderstanding, apparent in posts #33 and #42, which is that you apparently felt that I was making claims about the beliefs of Biblical-era Jews, and that I was endorsing the belief that Biblical passages supported belief in reincarnation. I have made neither claim in this thread, and I'm pretty sure your posts claiming to have "proved me wrong" are in error; you proved wrong a position I never held, and it seems that you mistakenly thought it was my position. I'm just trying to clear this up so we can move on.

In post #44, you said

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YOu said you could see passages in the bible that show people believing reincarnation.

To the best of my knowledge, I said no such thing. If I said such a thing, please show where I said it.

"Now, this statement is false"

No, its not. The context is talking about the jews referenced in the biblical times in the passages you are refering to.

"this has nothing to do with my claims."

Sure it does. We were talking about the claim that jews believe in reincarnation through the biblical passages as proof they believed in it. I showed you they couldn't have possiblly and you rambled on about it, I showed you your error and you say, oh, that's not what I was talking about, though you argued with me for several pages about it. Thus my conclusion. Either 1. you are wrong or 2 you were ranting about something just to argue for no other reason then to just argue in a mean way.

Actually, a belief among at least some Jews in reincarnation does go back to NT times...

Flavius Josephus, Jewish War (addressing some sewish soldiers about to commit suicide after loosing a battle rather than be captured) `The bodies of all men, are indeed, mortal and created out of corruptable matter; but the soul is ever immortal, and is a portion of the divinity which inhabits our bodies...Do not you know that those who depart out of this life according to the laws of nature...enjoy eternal fame: that their houses and posterity are sure; that their souls are pure and obedient, and obtain a most holy place in heaven, from whence, in the revolution of the ages they are sent again into pure bodies; while the souls of those who have acted madly against themselves are received by the darkest places in Hades.'

From Philo of Alexandria `...the air is full of souls; those who are nearest the earth descending to be tied to mortal bodies, returning to other bodies, desiring to live in them.

And reincarnation is a central element of the Kabala, of course.

"Actually, a belief among at least some Jews in reincarnation does go back to NT times..."

The first is not reincarnation, but a person given a "heavenly body" I'd have to see the context of the second, though i bet there is more to it.

Reincarnation is not a belief held by jews in biblical times.

1. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (100%)
2. Orthodox Quaker (82%)
3. Eastern Orthodox (81%)
4.Roman Catholic (81%)
5. Liberal Quakers (80%)

Too bad they didn't ask the one question that really matters. It would have switched these around a little.

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Today at 02:22 AM Outspoken said this in Post #85 "Now, this statement is false" No, its not. The context is talking about the jews referenced in the biblical times in the passages you are refering to.

Oh, *I* see the confusion!

I wasn't saying anything about the people referenced in the passages. I was saying that the Jews who believe in reincarnation believe that there are passages which support their position. I said nothing about the people described in the passages in question.

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"this has nothing to do with my claims." Sure it does. We were talking about the claim that jews believe in reincarnation through the biblical passages as proof they believed in it.

I see the misunderstanding. It was two separate claims:

1. There are Jews who believe in reincarnation.
2. Those Jews believe certain passages support their belief in reincarnation.

The claim was not that Biblical passages support the idea that Jews believe in reincarnation; it was that Jews who believe in reincarnation believe that Biblical passages support that belief.

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I showed you they couldn't have possiblly and you rambled on about it, I showed you your error and you say, oh, that's not what I was talking about, though you argued with me for several pages about it. Thus my conclusion. Either 1. you are wrong or 2 you were ranting about something just to argue for no other reason then to just argue in a mean way.

Or 3., you misunderstood my original post, and you were trying to disprove something that was different enough from what I thought I said that I didn't understand it.

Let's look again at the original post:

I personally don't particularly think reincarnation is likely, but I understand many Jews believe in it, and that there's some passages they interpret as supporting it.

The thing you seem to have read differently than I meant it is "there's some passages they interpret as supporting it".

I meant "they" to refer to "Jews who believe in reincarnation", and "it" to refer to "reincarnation". So, what I wrote, if we take out the pronouns, is:

... and that there's some passages that Jews who believe in reincarnation interpret as supporting reincarnation.

What you seem to have understood it as is:
... and that there's some passages supporting the belief that Jews believe in reincarnation.

I think you misread my sentence there; I don't think the pronouns can get tangled so as to mean the second thing. However, all of your posts make perfect sense with that reading, so that's got to be where the conflict comes from. If you read all of my posts keeping that clarification in mind, you'll see that they all stem from the belief that the topic under discussion is the beliefs of modern Jews about reincarnation and the Bible, while all of your posts stem from the belief that the topic under discussion is what the Bible says about Jewish beliefs about reincarnation.

So, I was right! We *WERE* talking past each other. Go back and re-read my post again, and see if it doesn't make more sense now.

"Too bad they didn't ask the one question that really matters."

Which one did they leave out?