quote:

Today at 09:55 PM paulewog said this in Post #39 Wow! Acme SmartPearls!

"I merely pointed out that some Jews believe that. "

Nooo.....lol They don't, well at least not in biblical times, therefore any biblical passage cannot be about reincarnation.

quote:

Today at 11:55 PM Outspoken said this in Post #38 "Reincarnation has been a part of the beliefs of some Jews for a LONG time, certainly at least a millennium." Nope, you're thinking about being given a new body, not the usual reincaration idea. Try again. *chuckles* oh and thanks for proving my point seebs.. "The notion of reincarnation, the transmigration of a soul after death into a new body, has no place in the Bible. The classical rabbinic works (midrash, Mishna and Talmud) also are silent on this topic. These beliefs originally only existed in a few gentile sects; " notice the word FEW and gentile.

Notice the word "originally".

Today, right now, there are a fairly large number of Jews who believe in reincarnation, as there have been for most of the last millennium.

Specifically, we mean "same soul lives on earth another time". That's a belief held by tens of thousands of Jews, and millions over the last thousand years.

If you read all four of the links provided, you'll find there's quite a bit of discussion of how and when this idea showed up, and which sects generally promote it. SSV has commented on it in the past.

'"Notice the word "originally"."

i agree, though this doesn't help your argument at all. YOu said you could see passages in the bible that show people believing reincarnation. This is not so since according to your sources only a FEW gentile sects believed in it, and then it was not wide spread among them until the 8th centery. Thus making any bibilcal passage you quote saying, this is about reincaration, totally a false and wrong interpreation.


"you'll find there's quite a bit of discussion of how and when this idea showed up"

i read it, it was around the 8th centery. Read your own sources before quoteing them next time.

No, I said that there were passages in the Bible which some people cite as support for their claim, but mostly, I said that there are a lot of Jews that believe in it.

You misread the passage you quote. Yes, the belief *FIRST* showed up among Gentiles. *AFTER THAT, IT WAS ADOPTED BY MANY JEWS*. Thus, my statement that many Jews believe in reincarnation stands; all four articles cited mentioned Jewish groups which accept reincarnation. Furthermore, it's worth noting that only a few groups actively reject it; most simply ignore it as not relevant.

Around the eighth century is over a thousand years ago; since that time, many Jewish sects have come to include reincartion, not as a core belief, but as one shared by many members of the sect, and not forbidden by the sages.

I didn't say that Jews believed this 3000 years ago; just that many do, and have for a long time. To my short years, 1200 or so years seems like a long time.

"No, I said that there were passages in the Bible which some people cite as support for their claim, but mostly, I said that there are a lot of Jews that believe in it."

Yup, and both points are wrong.

"*FIRST* showed up among Gentiles. *AFTER THAT, IT WAS ADOPTED BY MANY JEWS*. "

Yes starting in the 8TH CENTURY. So your biblical cites cannot be endorsing reincarnation, so try again seebs.

"To my short years, 1200 or so years seems like a long time."

making the biblical references NOT in favor of jews believing in reincarnation since in that time frame they did NOT. Sheesh I just said this, didn't you read it?
CONCLUSION: No biblical passage can be used as evidience for reincarnation because NONE of the jews believed in it during that time frame and only a FEW gentile sects did.

*cough* so much for not getting into the discussion

I didn't say they were *RIGHT* in thinking they had passages which support reincarnation - I said they made those claims.

I, for one, am glad to see some support for tossing out any interpretation which was not known in the time when the passage was originally written. For instance, the interpretation of that one Psalm to claim that the Bible as a whole would be preserved and clearly understood by every generation, that's a new one, introduced *LONG* after the Psalms were written. Similarly, the interpretation of Paul's letter to Timothy as saying that the book called "the Bible" is entirely god-inspired, well, that interpretation came somewhat after the passage was written - we know this, because the passage was bandied about for about two hundred years before there was a "Bible". We can rule out Calvinism and Reformed theology; as the names suggest, both are new theological insights and interpretations of existing passages.

The only problem I have is, the belief that Jesus was the Messiah was based on interpretations of Biblical passages, many of which were not known to the people who originally wrote those passages down, or interpreted them. And I'm pretty sure I want to keep that belief, even though it involves reinterpreting a passage in light of new thoughts and information that have come about since the passage was written.

"I said they made those claims."

LOL lets hear it for the back peddle

Well some of this was predictable:

1. Secular Humanism 100%
2.Universalist Unitarian 98%
3. Liberal Quaker 83%

But look at this!

4. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestant 80%

I would think my no god answers would have eliminated that!

5. Nontheist 72%
6. Theraveda Buddhism 68%