Domestic Discipline: Abuse by any other name

2005-12-11 00:29

Someone started a thread on a “lifestyle” called Domestic Discipline. This is the term used for it by some Christian groups, although similar practices are found in some Muslim communities.

Basically, it’s systematically organized and socially approved wife-beating.

People who know BDSM folks in Master/Slave relationships might think of this as a seriously dysfunctional Master/Slave relationship, with a lot more cruelty and genuine anger in the beatings, and no real consent.

Lemme give you examples. One girl was talking about how her father is beating her sister regularly because the sister might be masturbating, so the father comes into their room at night and beats her. Wives who fall short in any way are beaten. (Spanked, sometimes.)

This is justified, in the Christian groups, by the Biblical verses suggesting that husbands have authority over their wives.

I posted on the topic, and I don’t know that the post will survive the rigors of editing at that site, so I repost here for posterity. I was responding to someone who told everyone to leave him alone, because he’s not hurting them.

It is hurting us. Whenever any person harms another, it hurts all of us. It is an injury to the conscience to be asked to stand by while another does harm. It is an insult to Christ to compare His relationship to the church to that of a violent coward who, not content to beat up on someone too weak to defend against him, must lie about the Bible’s contents to give the illusion of a moral authority so that the weaker party isn’t even allowed to try to defend.

Christ does not beat us. Christ forgives every offense, sometimes before we even ask.

If the husband’s relationship to the wife is that of Christ to His Church, the husband should not only refrain from beating his wife; he should make no record of the times when she hurts him, simply forgiving all and loving without condition or exception.

There is no point in sugarcoating this or pretending that it is anything but what it is. It is abuse, and it is cowardly abuse. It would take more courage to kick a puppy, which after all might bite back. It would show more love to kick a puppy, which may not be smart enough to understand the difference between good attention and bad attention.

It is bad enough to behave in a way which is in every way more despicable than kicking a defenseless puppy for no reason. But to describe it in terms that imply even the most tenuous connection between the love of Christ for His church, and this behavior, is blasphemy. It is not “like” blasphemy, it is not “almost” blasphemy, it is blasphemy.

Would you know the one connection that exists between this systematic and ritualized abuse, and the love of Christ?

It is that He can forgive even this.

That is the connection. Go you now and seek that forgiveness.

Peter Seebach

---

Comments

  1. Oh, that is a good response.

    Robin Z · 2005-12-11 07:57 · #

  2. I thought this was another predictable 'don't spank your children' blog, but you are right about spouse abuse. Good post.

    My football jock son told me this one.

    Q-What do you say to a woman with two black eyes?

    A-Nothing you haven't told her atleast twice before.

    I sorta cringed, but I know he would never hit a woman. He's a peaceable and gentle guy.




    — tubby · 2005-12-21 03:08 · #

  3. Wow... That's a really good way to put it. I never really thought of pointing out that Christ wouldn't hurt us, and taught forgiveness, not abuse- so why do they think he would support wife-beating. Very lovely idea. ^^;
    I don't know if this means much- But you rock at debates.

    Dragon · 2006-01-15 20:22 · #

  4. I was writing a paper on the effects the internet has had on sexual behaviors when I came across Domestic
    Discipline I began to read the postings I could not believe what I was reading. I wanted to understand why these woman wanted this life style. I did something I am ashamed of and joined a discussion group. I claimed to be a married woman in a DD lifestyle. I could not believe what I read the so called spankings could do serious damage. One woman spoke of her husband using a rubber factory belt to spank her. Then he finished the beating with a hockey stick. She felt she deserved this punishment.
    What scared me even more was that the other woman would say she got what she deserved it was cult like. I wanted to get sick. I tried a few times to make one or two woman see this was abuse I was attacked.
    I honestly have to say I began to really feel for them. I realized that anything I said to critisize DD would not be received well. When I wrote a posting saying I would no longer be posting I got emails saying I must continue my DD lifestyle. It began to get very strange.
    I decided not to do the paper on DD because it upset me so much. This is a serious issue and needs to be adressed. The children of these woman are learning this is ok. When I asked one about how she would feel if her daughter practiced DD she said it would be fine. Another woman wrote a post saying her 19 year old daughter was in a shelter because her boyfriend beat her up. The rest of the woman said that the fact she had been raised in a house with DD had not effected her daughter. What about boys being raised in home that practice DD. I felt awful about lying except I do not regret that I lied. It has made me see that we need to do something to stop this violence. I just wish I knew how to make them see this is wrong.

    — Margot · 2006-02-09 16:01 · #

  5. Margot,

    I find your comment totally shocking. Why? Because I read these discussion on what I understand is the only group that they were posted. The reason I joined the group was much the same as yours, except that I was totally upfront about my reasons for joining and was accepted anyway.

    Let's be honest here. Responses to the hockey stick and rubber strap post were diverse and NOT all 'for', and responses to the abused daughter post mostly counselled keeping children of any age well away from what is purely a private practice between consenting adults. There also weren't any posts like the ones you claim to have made, condemning the pratice outright and there wasn't any unpleasantness, let alone any attacks. Similarly nobody wrote a post to say they wouldn't post on the group anymore.

    By all means, say you are not in favor of DD, but don't make up stories to prove your point.

    — Caro · 2006-04-09 23:28 · #

  6. Caro,

    I might not have been upfront except the protection of womans physical and emotional well being is primary. I find it insane that you would defend this practice. I suspect that you are not being honest about how you feel about DD. So maybe you should do some better research and you will find more sites with scary post.

    — Marjorie Radin · 2006-04-11 11:35 · #

  7. Caro,

    I might not have been upfront except the protection of womans physical and emotional well being is primary. I find it insane that you would defend this practice. I suspect that you are not being honest about how you feel about DD. Also there is more then one group that has open DD discussions. So your research is not quite accurate. I also wonder if you are being honest with us about your Stand on DD.

    — Marjorie Radin · 2006-04-11 11:40 · #

  8. Caro,
    You sound like a DD supporter who is lying on this site. I have been to several sites the minute you object to this life style they flip out. So I was manipulative except I think you are lying. You seem to know way to much about certain post to be just an observer. You are attacking me and defending them. I am only interested in woman having self respect and being physically along with emotionally safe. I am no fool.

    — margot · 2006-04-11 11:52 · #

  9. Caro,
    I may have gathered information in a deceptive manner. It is how I use this informations that is important. I invaded their personal lives which was wrong. That is the reason I abandoned using it in a paper. If it was a goverment agency I would have no problem in the way I obtained the information. So could you please explain why you are defending this practice of emotional and physical abuse.
    Margot

    — margot · 2006-04-11 16:51 · #

  10. Caro,
    The more I thought about your response to my post the more upset I became. I am one of those people who go by the biblical phrase if you see a million fish on the beachT and can only save a few why bother. Because it was important to the one you saved. I had a long talk with my hubby last night about what I was trying to accomplish along with saving woman who do not want to be saved. The fish story is an example of something that wanted to be saved. I can put my energy elsewhere(which from now on I am going to do). This population of woman is a minimal percent of woman in this country. So if they choose to live like this so be it. I am not going to get upset over woman who do not want to help.
    Margot

    — margot · 2006-04-12 07:08 · #

  11. Caro,
    I cannot understand why you have not responded to my postings. You seemed so eager to infer I was a liar. Now that I have responded to your attacks, you seem to be hiding or unable to respond. I would never have been as agressive as you unless I was hiding something. I hope you have had time to google domestic discipline or female sexuality and see how many DD sites exist. I really would like to know why you attacked me in such a hostile manner. Unless you are a DDer.
    Margot

    — Margot Radin · 2006-04-12 15:38 · #

  12. Margot,

    I had not responded to your posts because I have been online very little in the past few days and haven't managed to find the time to call in and read the posts at this blog. I'll answer your concerns and commments as best I can right now.

    To begin with, I didn't call you a liar - you called yourself one in your initial post when you explained that you had entered a DD site under false pretences and fabricated a story to justify your presence there. Since by your own admission neither your motive in going there, nor the background that you gave in order to infiltrate a private group was true, it's difficult to see it in any other light than as a lie.

    As to my having to be a 'DDer' to be on the site or know what was posted there, may I suggest that you submit an honest application to the forum and see whether or not it is accepted? From my own experience, I am 100% certain that you will be accepted as a member there even if your declared reason for joining is solely to do research. I don't know whether you are still a member there or not, but I am, and it wasn't very difficult to go back into the group, locate the discussions to which you refer, read back through them and ascertain that, as was my recolloction, no poster had written anything remotely like what you claim to have posted. Similarly, there was no evidence of any kind of attack on a poster in the course of these discussions. Although, you may have written about ceasing the DD you pretended to practise and not posting on the group any more in a place I haven't read, I wasn't able to find anything about that either. Conclusion - if the posts you claim to have made weren't there - then you never wrote them and didn't get the responses you claim to have got,and it follows that you are not being honest. I don't know what is on other groups of this sort - I read now and then on a few, but I do know that these particular stories were unique to the group to which you refer because the poster herself (the same woman in both cases), told me this herself when we had a conversation in the group's chat room. Conclusion - if the posts you claim to have made weren't there - then you never wrote them and didn't get the responses you claim to have got,and it follows that you are not being honest about your activities in this group. What you have said elsewhere I cannot comment upon, because I haven't seen what you wrote or how people reacted to it.

    I have looked back at my earlier comment and, while I can see that I have defended the right of people not to be misrepresented and spied upon, I cannot see where I "defended the practice", of DD, so I assume that makes me fairly sane after all. The rest of the things that you wrote about my defense of DD are purely the product of your own mind and I never said or implied any of them.

    Finally, I'll explain why I 'attacked' you, although I don't agree that it was any more of an attack than what you did to the people on the DD site. My reasons for this are simple - you went into a group under totally false pretences, you lied about who and what you were and your purpose in being there. You then 'evesdropped' on what was a private conversation in a private environment. Whether you posted or not I don't know, but you certainly didn't post in the way that you claim to have done, and you definitely didn't get the responses that you say you got. You then came here with a fabricated version of events and posted it as the truth. How anyone could feel enough pride in this duplicitous behavior to post it in a public place is beyond me. As to it being Christian or biblical, maybe you should sit down and read the ninth commandment.

    All I am saying here is that, if you want to make a stand against DD then stand up and do it with honesty and conviction as Seebs did in her blog entry. Please don't demean yourself by sneaking around, spying on people, lying and telling tales out of school.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2006-04-13 08:15 · #

  13. "I had a long talk with my hubby last night about what I was trying to accomplish along with saving woman who do not want to be saved."

    Yes, but you didn't try did you? You just snuck around the site pretending to be somebody and something else, listened in on the conversations and let it all happen. There wasn't even any end to justify the means. It's fine to come here and preach to the converted, but, unless you are totally dishonest with yourself, you can't pretend that you did all this for some noble and sefless motive. If it was me, then I'd be upset at my own dishonesty, not at somebody who sees it for what it is.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2006-04-13 09:49 · #

  14. Caro,
    I am not a bible beater except I do have some faith and do read some of the scriptures. I posted on a different site then the one you are talking about. I read the site you are talking about along with many others. I told you to put domestic discipline discussion groups into google and you will see not only msn has them. I was not about to repeat any of the private stories they told I was observing behaviors along with noticing how they became more submissive has time went on. I was not planning in any way of exposing them or what they shared in private this is not sixth grade. I am a professional not a person trying to hurt someone. In my training it is obvious that you practice DD with conflict. Or you would not have reacted to what I did in such a hostile manner. If you felt this was abuse you would be has outraged as any sane woman that read these post. The part about children not being involved is crap. Children know what is going on in the house they live in either by snooping or accident they find out.
    The way to save these woman is make sponsors stop supporting web sites that host DD discussion groups. Inform other woman that this practice goes on so if they suspect a friend is headed that way help. Do what you can do. If you don't agree TOUGH I do.

    — Margot · 2006-04-13 17:17 · #

  15. Caro:
    I just re-read the response I urge you to get help. Why are you so concerned about the privacy of these woman if you are not one.

    — margot · 2006-04-13 17:22 · #

  16. Caro:
    I keep rereading your post and I am pissed. I said it was another site so please go look you will find what you are searching for. Also you think it is ok for a woman to be beaten with a hockey stick or told to stand in a corner naked waiting for a spanking? What is your issue. Any woman in her right mind would see what is wrong with this.
    Margot

    — Margot · 2006-04-13 17:54 · #

  17. Caro,
    You did alot of transferance in your last paragraph. Just like the ladies who say it is not physical and emotional abuse. Why don't you show some guts and admit you are in a dd relationship. You are defending yourself I even think I know who you are. Most probably one of the woman I according to you deceived. So stop lying and admit you practice DD.
    Your New Buddie,
    Margot

    — margot · 2006-04-14 08:32 · #

  18. Margot,

    Just to clarify one or two things. You can suspect whatever you like about my private life, but that doesn't make it true. The reality, if you are really interested is this. My stand on DD is that I don't practise it myself and I wouldn't want to do the things that these couples do myself. However, I also think that what consenting adults do by their own choice and in the privacy of their own homes is entirely up to them and it isn't for me or anybody else to tell them how to run their lives. I certainly wouldn't like the hockey stick/conveyor belt thing and don't condone it for itself, but since it doesn't seem to have bothered or injured the lady concerned then I really don't see why it bothers you so much. Concerning the child thing, I'm sure that lots of people do lots of unusual things in their sex and private lives that the rest of the household aren't aware of, so I don't see why this should be any different. If you know as much about relationships as you seem to think you do, then you'll be aware that many women are subject for years to REAL physical and emotional abuse without even the closest members of their families being aware of this.

    Next, I told you that my reasons for being on that group and others were very similar to yours, except that I didn't make up and embellish a story in order to get into them. (I didn't Google, but followed links from one group to another) I haven't posted on any of them, but on the ones where membership had to be approved I was upfront about my reasons. The only thing I'll admit to is that I've hung around on some of them because the whole thing fascinates me.

    Finally, since you obviously don't want to see the real point of my comments, then I'll make them very clear. The issue here isn't DD or whether or not it's abuse. It's the fact that you went into a private community, ANY kind of private community, pretending to be somebody else, and listened in to other people's private conversations under false pretences. Maybe you made a stand against this that I didn't read and maybe you didn't, but this doesn't change the issue in hand. Having done all these totally dishonest and immoral things, you now want to present a MORAL judgement on other people. If you don't see the irony of that then it isn't only other people that you are lying to.

    Bottom line - I don't like liars and people I can't trust, and you are both of these things by your own admission. Neither your defensive attempts to turn this round on me, nor your denial to yourself are going to change this. Contrary to what you want to pretend, I respect your view of DD even if I don't agree with it entirely, but I do not have any respect at all for the way in which you formed it.

    By all means feel free to try to persuade me otherwise. but, until I see something that proves me wrong then my contempt for these tactics remains.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2006-04-15 02:32 · #

  19. Caro:
    You underestimate the intelligence of children. They snoop along with listening I have been told things by children that have blown me away. They have found sex toys in parent's bedrooms along with other interesting things. So if a child was to see a paddle or hear a so called discipline session you thing they would not get it, I don't think so.

    I admit you made me question my ethics so I spoke to someone who is a reporter about what I did. I also want to mention I would not disclose to him what the subject was on. He said it is done every day to gather information. He also explained it is one thing to write a book such as "A Million Little Pieces" which was delievering lies. To gather information under false pretencing is not a mortal sin. The other thing he said was I am not using the information gathered to write about the topic they had been discussing. I was gathering the information to write about the effects of the internet on people's sexual behaviors. Would you be so offended if I had done this to people trying to seduce young girls? No you would not that would have been considered a good thing.

    FYI in some state it is illegal to hit your spouse consenting or not. So our society sees a problem with this practice even if it is in the privacy of someones bedroom. Personally I don't think any goverment should be able to tell someone what to do in the privacy of their bedrooom. Even though I am against DD.

    Why I dulged more was the men that came on the these sites saying they wanted a DD relationship. The woman gave advice on how to approach DD in some cases manipulate their wive's into DD. To me that is alot worst then what you accuse me of doing. The woman on these site come from all different kinds of social and economic backrounds one of their sons could marry one of my daughters(God forbid). I have daughters what if I am not around one day and their husband's attempted to manipulate them into a DD relationship.

    The other thing is harsh spankings can do physcial damage to the spine and kidneys. Do some research about the damage done from intense spankings. The emotional damage is for life. What if a man made every serious decision in your life then he is gone. Imagine how scared you would be.

    The other piece of this DD thing is that DD and DV have similar effects on a woman's life. The detachment from family along with friends because they start to notice and comment on things. Woman become afraid to be with other woman because they might break a rule then a punishment will be given. So now these woman are becoming isolated from other female companionships. The amazing sexual connection they speak about after the spanking in DV this also occurs. I love you and YOU did something to make you deserve the punishment. The man feels he did the right thing. Don't you get it this is not erotic spanking it is abuse.

    The reason you are fasinated with this is interesting. You should speak to someone about that piece of you. I am a good person I do alot for other people. So this intense anger you have towards me is abnormal. I could honestly see if I hurt someone except I did not. You also said I lied about things which I did not. I did receive emails from a woman attacking me for ending my so called DD relationship. To be honest with you I liked one of these woman alot I think about her often. I have read her postings over the last few months she sounds like she is loosing her self identity along with connections to the outer world. So you can see it any way you want. I did not hurt anyone nor would I. If woman want to put their business on a open forum people are going to read what they post. I notice the msn group 2 (or what ever it was called)went private. The rest of them should also. People have to be accountable for what they let other people see.
    Marjorie

    — Marjorie · 2006-04-15 09:39 · #

  20. Caro:
    You underestimate the intelligence of children. They snoop along with listening I have been told things by children that have blown me away. They have found sex toys in parent's bedrooms along with other interesting things. So if a child was to see a paddle or hear a so called discipline session you thing they would not get it, I don't think so.

    I admit you made me question my ethics so I spoke to someone who is a reporter about what I did. I also want to mention I would not disclose to him what the subject was on. He said it is done every day to gather information. He also explained it is one thing to write a book such as "A Million Little Pieces" which was delievering lies. To gather information under false pretencing is not a mortal sin. The other thing he said was I am not using the information gathered to write about the topic they had been discussing. I was gathering the information to write about the effects of the internet on people's sexual behaviors. Would you be so offended if I had done this to people trying to seduce young girls? No you would not that would have been considered a good thing.

    FYI in some state it is illegal to hit your spouse consenting or not. So our society sees a problem with this practice even if it is in the privacy of someones bedroom. Personally I don't think any goverment should be able to tell someone what to do in the privacy of their bedrooom. Even though I am against DD.

    Why I dulged more was the men that came on the these sites saying they wanted a DD relationship. The woman gave advice on how to approach DD in some cases manipulate their wive's into DD. To me that is alot worst then what you accuse me of doing. The woman on these site come from all different kinds of social and economic backrounds one of their sons could marry one of my daughters(God forbid). I have daughters what if I am not around one day and their husband's attempted to manipulate them into a DD relationship.

    The other thing is harsh spankings can do physcial damage to the spine and kidneys. Do some research about the damage done from intense spankings. The emotional damage is for life. What if a man made every serious decision in your life then he is gone. Imagine how scared you would be.

    The other piece of this DD thing is that DD and DV have similar effects on a woman's life. The detachment from family along with friends because they start to notice and comment on things. Woman become afraid to be with other woman because they might break a rule then a punishment will be given. So now these woman are becoming isolated from other female companionships. The amazing sexual connection they speak about after the spanking in DV this also occurs. I love you and YOU did something to make you deserve the punishment. The man feels he did the right thing. Don't you get it this is not erotic spanking it is abuse.

    The reason you are fasinated with this is interesting. You should speak to someone about that piece of you. I am a good person I do alot for other people. So this intense anger you have towards me is abnormal. I could honestly see if I hurt someone except I did not. You also said I lied about things which I did not. I did receive emails from a woman attacking me for ending my so called DD relationship. To be honest with you I liked one of these woman alot I think about her often. I have read her postings over the last few months she sounds like she is loosing her self identity along with connections to the outer world. So you can see it any way you want. I did not hurt anyone nor would I. If woman want to put their business on a open forum people are going to read what they post. I notice the msn group 2 (or what ever it was called)went private. The rest of them should also. People have to be accountable for what they let other people see. I am sure a million other woman have fell upon a DD site and read in shock. Some have probably done what I did I just admited doing it. You owe me an apology for the attack. I reacted poorly to your attack I apoligize for calling you a smarty pants.
    Marjorie

    — Marjorie · 2006-04-15 09:43 · #

  21. Okay Margot,

    Fair comment. I don't agree with your assessment of DD because, from what I have read, except in a couple of so called Christian Forums where I think women allow their husbands to dominate and mistreat them out of a misplaced sense of duty, which is a bit on the scary side for me, it usually seems to be a two way thing without pressure or manipulation on either side. Whether or not it happens, I can't find any references to damage or real harm caused by spankings, either on the DD groups or generally although I grant that this does happen in abusive relationships where beatings as opposed to spankings are given where that is the whole purpose of the exercise. In most cases I don't see any evidence that one person makes all the decision and leaves the other helpless to fend for themselves, because if anything, these couples seem closer and more communicative than many people I know who aren't involved in this. However, you are perfectly entitled to voice your understanding of how it works, and there is no law that says we have to agree.

    I'll also withdraw my insinuation that you infiltrated these places for the wrong reason and apologise for that. Without knowing you or who you are, I'm not in a position to judge whether or not your motives were good and the way you explain it seems feasible to me. I can't agree though that just because journalists use similar methods to investigate certain things, that makes it ethical or right. I because I still feel that honesty is the best policy especially if it is something that you feel strongly enough about to want to change. On the other hand, I do take your point that it wouldn't have bothered me if you had done the same thing in order to protect a child or children from some kind of abuse. The fundamental difference for me was that, in my opinion and mine alone, you weren't protecting the helpless in this case, but trying to rearrange what happens between two consenting and mentally capable adults in their private and personal relationship. I see that you view it differently and I respect that, but I just can't see it in quite the same way. I also would protest that you HAVE written about it here, so the argument that you didn't use it doesn't really apply.

    I wasn't aware that the particular MSN group to which you are referring was ever public, because I found it via a link on another DD group and as far as I know, it has always been closed to public view.

    To conclude, I do accept that your motives were good and that you feel you are doing the right thing, but I don't agree with your reading of what DD is about or thing that these are women who are oppressed or abused through some kind of one sided and cruel relationship.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2006-04-15 12:42 · #

  22. Caro,
    Thank you I am not the two headed monster. I will not direct you into any one site that is your job. I read a post last week that a woman said this was a resolve to her ADD what if we spanked every child with ADD. They would be very screwed up adults.
    Your Budddie,
    Margot

    — Marjorie · 2006-04-16 21:35 · #

  23. Caro,
    I googled DD and over 2 million results came up. So to say you knew exactly what site I spent time on was insane. I will not disclose to you or anyone else what site I posted on. If you want you should google research every site and you will find the site after some research time. I need to move on from this I am having a problem doing that when you insisted I am liar about my original post.
    Margot

    — Margot · 2006-04-17 19:48 · #

  24. Margot,

    The only reason that I associated the quite unusual and specific events that you described with a particular site, was because the lady who posted them there mentioned in that forum's chat room that she hadn't posted them anywhere else. I therefore naturally make the connection that you and I were reading at the same site. This has nothing to do with wanting you to tell me name of that the site or any other,and I have no interest whatsoever in 'Googling' whatever number of sites on the subject of DD or spanking in general.

    Next, in your precise words,

    "I did something I am ashamed of and joined a discussion group. I claimed to be a married woman in a DD lifestyle."

    and later in the same comment,

    "I felt awful about lying except I do not regret that I lied."

    You see, I didn't need to call you a liar because you already described yourself in this way.

    Now, bearing in mind that we know that you and I were reading in the same place, which was the only place on which these events were posted, read your own comments directly following and pertaining to your description of the rubber strap and hockey stick incident:-

    "I tried a few times to make one or two woman see this was abuse I was attacked."

    Now, although I remembered the other woman's post, I could not recall any post that protested abuse, nor could I remember there being any kind of attack on anyone in the course of this discussion. As I said earlier, I am still a member of this group, so I went back and looked at the discussion in question and found that my recollections were correct.

    Again, I looked back at the posts concerning the (same) woman's daughter being abused by her boyfriend, and found nothing to tally with your claim, again directly connected with the subject in hand,

    "When I asked one about how she would feel if her daughter practiced DD she said it would be fine".

    Finally you say mentioned, although I agree that you did not associate this directly with your activities in that particular group,

    "When I wrote a posting saying I would no longer be posting.............."

    and I found that there wasn't a post of this type on that group either. Maybe you posted that elswhere and never meant to sound as if it took place on that specific group. Chances are that, if you did, I wouldn't have seen it because my reading of this type of group is limited to a very few.

    Again, I reiterate the fact that I accept that your motives were only good and that you did not go there or anywhere else with the intention of invading people's privacy or doing them harm, but quite honestly it was your own words that led me to draw the conclusions that I did. If you hadn't made all these claims in the first place then I wouldn't have felt compelled to reply.

    Since you raise the new subject of ADD and make the connection with the spanking of children with that condition, I'll comment on that too. The answer is in your own words:-

    "I read a post last week that a WOMAN said this was a resolve to HER ADD" (The capitals in the words "WOMAN" and "HER" are mine)

    You see, the woman in question who was presumably a consenting and competent adult said that it was aresolve to HER ADD - she did not say that it would help anyone else's, let alone that of a child. In fact, I think that you will find that pretty well all of these groups have a strictly enforced written rule that the discipline of children MUST not be discussed under any circumstances because such forums are intended exclusively for the discussion of adult matters between CONSENTING adults.

    Since I agree with you that this whole subject has dragged on too long, I'll assure you that, unless you chose to prolong it by introducing new elements to the conversation, I will not post any more comments on the subject now that I have said all there is to say.

    Regards,
    Caro

    — Caro · 2006-04-18 18:40 · #

  25. Caro,
    Forest Gump said it and you are it "Stupid is as Stupid Does". I am a 48 year old woman with Dyslexia along with a Masters degree. If I was spanked every time I screwed up I would be a hotel maid today. I don't care what that woman thought was good for her ADD she is implying to other woman it is OK if your spouse spanks you for making a mistake. Know what lets just end special education in this country when woman become adults their husbands can spank them to make them learn. Any one stupid enough to think this is a way of curing their short falls needs help.
    You continue to insist I replied to the woman who posted on MSN I DID NOT I POSTED TO DIFFERENT WOMAN ON ANOTHER SITE AND WAS BLASTED. I do not feel as badly as I did when I made my original post on this site. A matter of fact I am a very sensitive person I allowed the woman who attacked me to make me feel badly. I have since read other anti DD sites if I stopped one woman from getting involved in this abuse I DID THE RIGHT THING.
    As far as the physical thing spinal injuries for woman over 40 is a major health problem. So how you can say a serious hard spanking cannot do damage is ignorant. I know you must be in a DD relationship so God Speed to you.

    Regards,
    Margot

    — margot · 2006-04-21 20:31 · #

  26. Caro,
    You are so stuck on dissecting every word in my original post. I posted over 100 times on that particular site. I exchanged emails with 2 woman one emailed me a photo of herself and family. She told me without my asking all about her husbands job. She started sharing without any inquiries from me. That is when I realized that I had to stop this entire situation. I felt sorry for her she had no friends. When I said I was ending my so called DD lifestyle she flipped. I even offered to remain her friend(I knew she needed someone to talk with) she would not stop sending me pro DD info. I asked her to stop sending DD information that is when she attacked me.
    For you to be so defensive of this lifestyle atleast practice what you preach be honest. You are in a DD lifestyle or you have multiple personality disorders. From they way you write it is obvious you are well educated. I am challenging you to be honest about where you are coming from.

    — Margot · 2006-04-22 05:34 · #

  27. Caro,
    Why is that you have dissected along with manipulating every word in my inital posting? The situation I mentioned was something I read I never said I responded to that posting.
    I will explain my relationship that I did have with 2 women from DD threads. One was mellow her attitude was if you are not into DD anymore that is all right. The other woman was a different story she was VERY LONELY and personalized that I was ending DD. SHE ONLY HAD INTERNET FRIENDS FROM HER OWN ADMISSION(SHE STATED SHE DID NOT LIKE ANYONE IN HER TOWN).I said we could remain email buddies just lets not discuss DD. She started sending me all of this DD propaganda from other sites I asked her to please stop she attacked me. A few weeks before I had said no more of this DD posting she sent me a photo of her family I was shocked I even mentioned to her that she should be careful about sending out photos on the internet or sharing what your spouse does for a living.
    What I was looking for initally I had gathered. I had also decided that I emotionally was over my head I was not going to write this paper. I had wasted a year gathering information that I was not going to use. I want to make this clear I was never going to repeat what they posted I was examining how involved they became in these relationships with people they met in discussion groups especially groups that had a sexual components. I will admit I became personally attached I stayed longer then I should have. I found myself clearing my computer because I was afraid if my husband found out he would insist I get help. I liked these ladies they made me laugh I also was concerned for them. I realized I was doing exactly what I was researching having unhealthy relationships on internet discussion groups. I started to become addicted to reading their post along with detaching from friends. The other part that was different is DD had no place in my marriage so I was making up stories to stay connected.
    when Katrina hit the Gulf Coast a self absorbed lady in the group started sharing her recent vacation while the rest of the country was glued to the TV. It was a wake up call that these women are so obsessed with this lifestyle they are detached from the world around them. I had planned to say good-bye when the lady who sent the photo had a death in the family. I wanted to be around for her she went to this discussion for support she had no one to talk with. I had started to make hints I was ending DD. I almost felt at one point I had convinced her to stop DD. When she seemed to be back on track I wrote I would be leaving. This particular woman wrote to me saying how upset she was I was ending DD. I said we could remain friends without any DD discussion. Within a few days she started emailing me postings about DD from other sites. When I asked her to stop, she flipped out and said some nasty things. I would never hurt any of these woman they are doing a good enough job on their own along with their spouses.
    I am not scared for the educated,mature woman who want this lifestyle It is the 18 year old uneducated vulnerable woman I fear will get hurt. I have also come to accept I cannot do a thing to change the situation. Other sites exist that denounce DD so other people feel like I do let them attempt to make changes. I am drained this comes from the fact I became personally involved(a lesson I will never forget). I can direct my energy to other things that are not so draining along with not being an uphill battle.
    You have got to be in a DD arrangement or you would not be so defensive of DD. I did not use the information I gathered so why are you so defensive. Unless you suffer from multiple personality issues. You have managed to annoy the hell out of me with your disection of my inital post. I posted it after I read a post written by the woman I cared about. I just see her so over the top with DD. Do you care about women being abused or just ripping me apart?
    Margot

    — Margot · 2006-04-22 12:11 · #

  28. To anyone who reads the prior postings I owe an apology. I personalized Caro attacks that I abandoned the inital issue which is the promotion of DD.
    Freedom of Speech is a right that our founders built into the constitution. It must be protected even though it is being challanged by things that did not threaten society when it originated.
    On many of the DD sites it sounds poetic that allowing your husband to control you will make the relationship wonderful conflict will disapear. So many woman live in relationships with conflict that they are desperate to do anything to make it work. Others could call Domestic Violence Domestic Discipline he is doing it to make me a better person. If it is against the law to promote DD on the internet the next thing we will not need a search warrant to enter a home.
    Women came together for the sufferage movement which allowed them the right to vote. Some woman said it was stupid woman should not vote. Women still won we sure do vote, our votes count. Then we had the Equal Rights Ammendment same thing many women said it was stupid the message got across. My point is we need to teach girls that in a relationship you cannot allow physical or emotioanal abuse to guide what makes a relationship work. We also must insist that putting any content on the internet that promotes physical punishments towards women is wrong. Some of these sites make it sound poetic just like Hitler did with his propaganda against the Jews. Women who want to live this life should be on private spaces(that is their constitutional right). I know I am not the only woman left that feels so stronly about stopping the promotion of DD. So to all that agree with me keep your eyes open if you suspect try to help.
    Again I apoligize for spending so much thread time going back and forth for personal feelings.
    Margot

    — Margot · 2006-04-24 15:17 · #

  29. Excuse me for butting in here, but I am a woman in a DD relationship, and I would like to point out something that is, as far as I can judge, true of the majority of couples who practise DD, it is the woman who asks for this kind of relationship. I've been into spanking all my life, it was only after discovering the Taken In Hand website among others that I began to consider the possiblity that spanking could be used as 'discipline' rather than being purely erotic. Bringing the subject up with my husband was embarrassing, but he seemed to grasp what I wanted without too much difficulty, and took to it with ease, and indeed enthusiasm.

    Again and again I read messages from women on TIH and other sites who are frustrated because they can't persuade their husbands to do this, or the husbands try but aren't consistent about it or whatever. They compain their husbands don't spank for things they've said they'll spank them for, that they don't get spanked hard enough or often enough, that they don't feel he's really in charge. Every time I post a comment about my husband having laid down the law about something, or spanked me or otherwise taken charge of the situation, I get wistful comments from women saying things like "You're so lucky! How can I get MY husband to do that?"

    In the groups that I belong to, the overwhelming impression I get is that it is women who are the driving force behind starting these relationships.

    — Louise · 2006-04-28 03:52 · #

  30. I am an intelligent, highly educated, happily married adult woman. I have an equally intelligent, highly educated, adult husband who respects me, cherishes me, loves me and is completely devoted to me and our marriage. At my request and WITH MY CONSENT, my husband has the option available to him to discipline me should I fail to maintain certain standards of behavior that we have BOTH discussed and agree are appropriate and in the best interest of our relationship and the marriage we intend to stay in together for the rest of our lives. The discipline of choice, again at my request and with my consent, is most often a spanking.

    Let me say that again; a SPANKING. And for those who may need it defined: I am bent over, my bottom is bared and my husband will use his hand or apply a paddle or leather belt to my bottom with the intention of inflicting the pain one would expect to feel when struck on the BOTTOM that way.

    The objective is to give me consequences for behaviors we've agreed are inappropriate and that undermine the general(and genuine) harmony and peace in our relationship. Again, he does this at my request and with my consent.

    Does this make me an abused wife? Emotionally manipulated or controlled? Immature or in need of psychiatric counselling? It would seem that there are many people who believe it does and to me, that is very sad. They don't know me or my husband yet feel very comfortable making that call.

    I could go into all the reasons why I consent to being spanked by my husband but I, regretfully, realize that certain people have no real interest in the "whys" because once they hear the word "spanking" their minds refuse to wrap around anything other than some pre-conceived, often incorrect notion that spanking an adult woman on her bottom is tantamount to beating her senseless. So there is no point in trying to "explain" that personal, private decision made between two loving and committed adults.

    What I will say is that I actually DO understand why those who cannot or will not see the decision to use discipline within marriage as a personal CHOICE are up in arms once they "hear about it".

    Frankly, there are many other options available to every married couple when it comes to dealing with issues such as disrespect, dishonesty, discourtesy or disagreement in their marriages. Which, by the way, my husband and I employ MORE often than discipline. The simple fact of the matter is, that for ME,(and women like me) a spanking is a tangible and effective way to hold me accountable to a standard of behavior that I WANT to be held to. The fact that I WANT to be held accountable by the man toward whom my behavior (good, bad or indifferent) has the most impact on is not only logical but a testament to my trust in and commitment to him.

    Does my husband enjoy spanking me? No. Why does it do it then? Because I've asked him to hold me accountable in that way, because IT WORKS FOR ME and it works for our marriage. Period.

    THAT should be all that matters to people like Caro because the decision to spank was made between two consenting adults within the confines of a loving and devoted marriage and it is practiced privately and discretely between the two of us within our home.

    Last time I checked, as an adult woman, I have the right to make that personal choice and, frankly, it scares me to death that people like Caro are taking it upon themselves to try and convince the masses that they are better equipped to make those choices FOR me based on their OWN personal distaste for my decision.

    What's next? Will people like Caro decide what is "appropriate" for my sex life too? What if I "admitted" that I ocassionally enjoy being tied up during foreplay? Would that then be deemed by them as "potentially dangerous" (OMG! What if there were a FIRE?!) and, because its personally unappealing to THEM, start making noise about how I need to be "protected" from that too?

    I suggest Caro go back and infiltrate the private, adult DD on-line communities she claims she got her information from and treat the women there with the dignity and respect she claims she believes they deserve by asking a few HONEST questions about their choices. I guarantee she will find a host of honest, intelligent, emotionally stable women who are QUITE CLEAR on what defines "abuse" and as intolerant of it's practice as she is.

    Unless and until that happends I can only hope that she, at least, recognizes that she is condeming ONLY what she doesn't understand and her contention that she is only trying "help these poor women" is condensending, patronizing and more than a little insulting.

    Which, by the way, is why women in genuine DD relationships formed on-line PRIVATE and ADULT communities; so that we can have a forum where we are free to share our choices and experiences without fear of lables, criticism and unsolicited opinions and condemnations from judgemental, pious people who think they are better able to think FOR us than we are.

    How ironic that people like Caro claim to want to protect rights and freedoms but contend the only way to do that is to REMOVE individual choice and replace it with one THEY deem more suitable.

    — Adult Woman · 2006-05-04 15:53 · #

  31. I would like to make a correction to a response to this thread I posted recently.

    I directed most of my comments to "Caro" and those like her. I mistakenly confused the authors of the posts/replies that were exchanged here between "Margot" and "Caro".

    As I understand it now, "Margot" was actually the person who entered the DD online community under false pretenses and it was the postings made by her that motivated the majority of my own post. I apologize to Caro and applaud her defense of adult women having the absolute right to choose what will or will not occur within the confines of their personal and private relationships.

    — Adult Woman · 2006-05-04 16:57 · #

  32. You women who practice DD are so brain washed that you believe every single thing that you read that is pro DD. It is similar to Hitler in Germany, He made ethnic cleansing sound poetic. I made my point and my stand clear on DD I do not believe that giving one adult giving another the right to discipline her will do anything but degrade the other person. Some woman feel they need to be degrated because of past behaviors. People can go onto pro marijuania site and they will never read it is bad for your lungs. So do you think Taken in Hand is going to be anything but a bunch of DV's making this abuse sound poetic. To all of you women that promote this DD garbage I hope one day (if it has not already happened) you do not have a womens life you helped some way come to a violent end. You are playing with fire by promoting this crap and you don't even see that or feel any responsibility for what you are promoting. That could be the connection you have with a need for DD you do have a problem with doing the right thing so you feel DD will make it allright. Go speak to a clergy, profesional any person that could provide you with the help you need. You even said it your self you have to go to secret places to talk about this. That alone is a statement I am doing something that goes against the grain so I must sneak around. Have fun hiding it must suck.

    — Marjorie · 2006-05-07 03:13 · #

  33. After rereading both of the responses you did not read my postings fully. I have no judgement on what you do in private except you promote this pratice (not life style emotional & physical abuse is not a life style being gay is a life style). Some of the women you promote this crap to are living in unhealthy relationships. Taken in Hand makes money from other sites that it promotes. The site they promote sell paddles and spanking material. So don't you think that they are putting lipstick on the pig and calling it a princess.

    — Marjorie · 2006-05-07 05:41 · #

  34. Majorie,

    It's patently obvious that the only way you can manage to maintain that abnormally high opinion of yourself is to do whatever you can to insure that everyone around you is convinced they have no hope of acheiving the incredibly high moral ground on which you seem to believe you stand alone. Even if that includes attacking, demeaning and insulting an ENTIRE COMMUNITY of people for simply not agreeing with your self-righteous and biased opinions.

    To even suggest that a truly physically or emotionally battered woman might "stumble" into one of our on-line communities and succomb to the "brainwashing" by us "cultish" women, and find some justification with which to validate or escalate her own genuinely abusive situation is not only absurd but perhaps the most pious and self indulgent statement you've made to date. And it has convinced me that you are a far too unsatisfied and bitter woman to bother with anymore.

    — Adult Woman · 2006-05-09 02:08 · #

  35. Oh my God I have no high opinion of my self I make mistakes can be over judgemental etc.. What I am saying is this information should not be made easily available to every women that has a interest in spanking. I spoke with a women whose marriage was in deep trouble she also had a spanking fetish. She started reading a DD site thought this was the perfect solution. Next thing you know she is being emotionally abused. She had to leave the marriage. What I notice is you use pious and self indulgence in your writing so I know you have deep religous roots. In a religous community this could seem acceptable. I am saying keep it private if a woman is looking for a DD community she should have one. If some poor misquided women needs to find a way to help her marriage she should not be looking for a DD solution she should find a marriage counsler.
    What all of you ladies are finding so upsetting is I am not agreeing with DD or your fundemental beliefs so who is pious? Am I wrong for not allowing my husband to spank me for not obeying his rules. He would not let me spank him for being a bad boy. Even if we do fight we will eventually talk then make love so what is so bad.

    — Marjorie · 2006-05-10 08:41 · #

  36. I had truly decided to avoid going head to head with again because I saw no real point in trying to make someone understand something they really have no interest in understanding. However, your tone in the last response compells me to give this one last shot.

    You wrote:

    "What I am saying is that information should not be made easily available to every woman who has an interest in spanking"

    My response to that is simply:

    Then who exactly gets to decide WHICH women are emotionally stable or mature enough to access information regarding spanking? You? Me? A committee of licensed professionals who have previously determined her to possess the appropriate mental and emotional faculties to be permitted to explore that interest safely and sanley?

    YOU were able to locate information on spanking. What hoops (as an adult woman living within a free-society who, I assume, believes herself to be mature and capable of intelligently researching and forming her own opinions on the subject) would you have wanted to be required to jump through in order to obtain such information?? Can you honestly say that, having met the criteria of being an ADULT who lives in country that guarantees you the right to pursue such knowledge, is a freedom you want revoked simply because there are other people who find the subject distasteful?

    You cited an example of:

    A woman you had contact with her explored her own interest in spanking while in the midst of a failing marriage, only to have her CHOICE to pursue discipline within her marriage "backfire" in that she ended up emotionally abused and had to leave the marriage.

    My response to that is simply:

    Incorporating discipline with a marriage is NOT a choice that is appropriate for every couple across the board. And if you were to go back to a couple of those boards and pose a few honest questions, I GUARANTEE that you will find the VAST majority of "DDers" WILL tell you exactly that. Furthermore, it is extremely rare to find someone there who would advocate anyone "blindly" or impulsively incorporating discipline into their relationship as a fundamental principal of an HOH/DD relationship is that discipline is exercised within the confines of a LOVING and committed relationship in which the wife completely trusts her husband to take on the authority to discipline her responsibly, thoughtfully and with the best interests of her as his primary motivation. The fact that the woman was admittedly in the midst of a "bad marriage" clearly indicates that trust and committment within the marriage was already damaged (if not gone)for one or both of them. Based on my experience, most "DDers" may have advised her to adopt a more submissive and/or obedient attitude toward her husband FIRST in an attempt to repair the damage done due to loss of trust and/or commitment. If the woman had admitted that her husband was even mildly emotionally or physically abusive (which he most certainly had to have been on some level if he so easily became outright abusive once she granted him the authority to discipline her) she would have been strongly advised NOT to incorporate discipline along with her decision to try to be more obedient and/or submissive unless and until the trust and commitment to the marriage was fully restored for both of them.

    I readily admit there are as many "extremist" in the DD community as there are in any other faction of people. For example, not every adult in the country abuses alcohol, but does the fact that there are some who don't intelligently and responsibly drink a legitimate basis for deeming that ALL consumption of alcohol is "wrong" and presents a danger to society at large so it should be banned or restricted beyond the current requirement that one must be an adult in order to have access to it? Of course, not. That is, of course not unless you want to open the door for ALL individual adult freedoms to be mandated by someone else.

    You wrote:

    That you assume I have deeply religious roots and that my choice to live under the authority (and discipline) of my husband must be "acceptable" within a religious community.

    My response:

    You are correct in guessing that I am a relgious woman. You are also correct in assuming that within my faith and the community of fellow believers, my choice to submit to my husband and to respect him and his authority in our marriage is not only "acceptable" but an expectation. However, your implication was that the church must support or encourage our choice to incorporate discipline into our marriage which is based on the Scriptural commands that Husband's love their Wives and Wives respect and submit to their Husbands. There is where you are wrong.

    Yes, I admit again, there are extreme "religious" sects of people who use Scripture as their basis for DD. Frankly, those people are DEAD WRONG. God neither forbids nor commands discipline between a husband and wife. That choice is a personal decision that I believe God will honor either way if that decision is exercised within the confines of marriage based on His will.

    You wrote:

    "If some poor misguided woman needs to find help for her marriage she should not be looking to DD as the solution, she should find a marriage counselor".

    My response is:

    Again, who exactly gets to decide this if not that woman? And WHY shouldn't she consider DD along with as many other options she can choose to try? (Unless, as I previously stated, she is unable to trust her husband with intelligently and lovingly taking on that responsibility?) I would venture to say that there are as many people who never consider spanking as there are that would. For the ones who would, choosing to submit to discipline from one's husband is as legitimate to them any other option BECAUSE they view it from a personal pre-disposition or belief in a system of accountablity within marriage that includes submitting to loving discipline.

    What I really want to convey is that it takes an exceptional man to understand the gravity of his responsibility if his wife consents to his use of discipline within their marriage. And it takes an exceptional woman to consent to that exchange of power and so fully trust in her husband to discipline her out of love for her. THAT is the type of marriage most "DDer's" I've had experience with have. Marriages based on love, mutual respect and devotion to one another.

    Do I "fault" you for not submitting to discipline meted out by your husband. Of course not. The VAST majority of DDers would agree with me as I contend that discipline should be a mutally agreed upon option within any marriage and it hinges on the woman's CONSENT to be disciplined.

    What I "fault" you for, Marjorie, is that the thought of a husband spanking his wife and her consent to that practice is CLEARLY distasteful to you but instead of either trying to understand DD or, on the other hand, simply admitting it's unthinkable to you and leaving it at that, you've chosen to attack the women for whom DD has truly proven to be a practice that works within their marriages by publically writing them off as specifically "brainwashed" and "cultish", and implying they are niether strong enough, smart enough or mature enough to make that decision carefully, thoughtfully and reasonably within their own relationships.

    Furthermore, you went on to accuse those of us who choose DD to be actively pursuing the masses to "join our cult". You portrayed us across the board as supporters of abuse who encourage every woman we meet to disregard her own ability to distinguish whether or not DD is a legitimate choice for her. You gave us no credit for supporting the woman who intelligently choose it or for encouraging the women for whom it doesn't work to discontinue it.

    And, most of all, I "fault" you for making all of those claims based on what you claim to be your experience in on-line DD boards. Had you truly explored those sites, you would have found a host of intelligent women who simply share the same lifestyle choice and gather together to share experiences, advice, support and knowledge about DD.

    We don't actively recruit women to our boards but we don't discourage those who come to them with a genuine interest and sincere desire to explore this choice.

    Go back to any one of those boards, Majorie, and read over the threads. You won't be able to count the number of times you see "DDer's" express to one another their opinion that, based on what they have posted about discipline within their relatinship, their experience is one of abuse and not legitimate and loving DD. We look out for each other. We have no reservations about saying it outright if we think someone is being abused under the "guise" of DD. I dare say, we're actually better able to "spot" an abuser than most BECAUSE we do know the difference between loving discipline and outright abuse.

    You will never see DD for what it is to the woman who chooses it. You will never be able to convince me that my choice to consent to it is wrong. I can accept that and agree to disagree on the topic.

    But you seem intent on wiping our communities off the internet (and the face of the planet if you could, I suspect) and that's not something I can "agree to disagree" with. We keep them as "private" as possible but because you've decided that there's that potential for the "wrong" woman to wander into one of our chatrooms and adopt this lifestyle for herself...only to have it end badly or tragically for her, that is justification enough for saying we have no right to congregate on line...period.

    Do you also believe we should close down every bar in the country to protect the alcoholic from himself too?

    So if you're truly interested in keeping our communities "private" why don't you start with refraining from inflitrating them and them publically "exposing" them in forums like this.

    Have YOU considered the possibility that some poor misguided woman may have stumbled upon THIS board and, based on the number of posts/responses YOUR opinions have generated, she now finds herself facsinated with the subject and will further explore it on her own and MAYBE EVEN CONVERT? How will you be able to live with yourself?

    — Adult Woman · 2006-05-10 17:04 · #

  37. I am not a bible beater never will be a bible beater.
    I will adress your response later it is so full of holes that it should have sunk.

    — Marjorie Radin · 2006-05-11 06:28 · #

  38. Marjorie, do think perhaps you might be able to stop repeating yourself? You've basically stated the same things in all of your posts. Which shows us all that you decided a long time ago how you felt about this issue, and there is no room for growth. I'm not saying that you should start agreeing with the opposing view, but one would think that you would develop new insights to support your views, and defend against the many different arguments that have been brought against you. Oh, and my I suggest that you learn a new word today? Empathy.

    — Just surfin' the net · 2006-05-12 02:18 · #

  39. As an afterthought:

    I'm sure I will be given quite the verbal lashing by you Marjorie, as you seem to overeact to all of the criticisms against you. When I don't respond, please know that it is only because I stumbled on this page through a google search, and I have no intention on revisiting. So say what you will, be as brutal as you wish, because it will go undefended. Hey, at least you'll win one!

    — Just surfin' the net · 2006-05-12 02:22 · #

  40. To Surfin'the net:

    Why is it that people who are coming from a weak position always look to be critical of people with strong view points. My points are valid, I stand by them.
    I am not about to change an entire Cults tradition's or value by stating my belief's. This entire thing got started between Caro and I going head to head. If women want to be degrated by DD that is a choice they can make. The point I have been trying to make is they should stop using poetic tones when promoting it has the marriage saver. Many women want to save a marriage and could give this power to the wrong man. These women could become victoms of violence. That simple I don't know why so many responses since last month when prior to that no one had posted to my thread. Is this becoming a cult hang out?

    — Marjorie · 2006-05-12 09:20 · #

  41. I had to laugh at myself because I can't help but admit that I am actually (and morbidly) curious as to what nonsense you will actually post regarding your most recent cryptic post that stated:

    "I'm not a bible beater, never will be a bible beater. I will address your post later it is so full of holes it should have sunk".

    Let me save you some energy:

    Because you made reference to "bible beating", I have to conclude that you intend to attack my clearly-stated PERSONAL belief that God neither commands nor forbids discipline within marriage.

    Please don't risk an aneurism on that topic. It would be the very DEFINITION of "Delusion of Grandeur" for you actually believe that you can dissect my personal faith and actually LOOK justified doing it. Let's just agree to disagree on what we EACH personally believe God says to us.

    As far as the "so full of holes" comment: Now, THAT'S the comment that has me so morbidly curious.

    I've re-read my last post and think I've managed to address everything you believe is so full of hole so...

    Please...go ahead and punch holes in my PERSONAL experience with DD and people who practice it. (I had NO idea you were privy to MY personal and private experiences so DO tell....)

    Take a shot at my defense of the personal freedoms free societies afford their citizens like the freedom to pursue knowledge in areas of personal interest, or the freedom to congregate with likeminded individuals.

    I can't wait to see you try to make me look stupid for contending that among those freedoms is the right to PRIVACY. Both personal privacy as well as the right for adults to congregate within private adult internet communities.

    Hhmmm...what WILL you say to attack my opinion that any adult person living within one of those right-to-personal-freedom societies possesses the absolute right to explore the practice of DD and to form her own opinion of whether or not it's a practice personally appropriate for her?

    How will you argue my opinion that YOU (or me for that matter) have no right nor any invitation to even suggest a mandate that makes one persons OPINION on ANY subject more valid than someone elses?

    And, finally, I am just GLUED to my laptop, waiting to see what "evidence" you can produce to negate my contention that on line DD communities do not actively pursue or attempt to recruit the masses into our "cult"...seeing as the vast majority of them are clearly labled ADULT, PRIVATE and/or Membership Only sites.

    Oh what the heck, as long as I'm here, I would like to add something further to that thought:

    Would you consider the FACT that we have no choice but to trust that anyone who actually MAKES it onto one of our boards was ALREADY pre-disposed toward the subject of DD enough to pursue membership access?

    (We COULD be wrong there, of course, believe it or not, it's actually been rumored that there are people who have LIED about their intentions/interests and entered our communities under false pretenses in order to elicit information...information, by the way, that was intended ONLY for the likeminded individuals within the community...but I digress...)

    In any event, for you to argue that our "cultish" activity lures poor, defenseless woman into the trap of domestic violence is (forgive my bluntness here) a TOTAL LOAD OF CRAP.

    How can you possibly fault us for concluding they entered our communities of their own free will and in pursuit of their own personal interests...which (Oh my!) are SUPPOSEDLY the SAME interest we share? That is what the DD Boards were designed for - A PLACE WHERE LIKE-MINDED PEOPLE CAN CONGREGATE AND EXCHANGE EXPERIENCES.

    (And in case you missed it: "like-minded" is the operative word here).

    So, my friend, YOUR posts are actually the ones that are so full of holes they should have sunk based on the following:

    We agree that neither You nor I have the right to dictate what other adults CHOOSE to do within the privacy of their own relationships. So your opinion against DD and my personal decision to practice it is simply that: a difference of opinion. Period. And that's where it should have ended.

    You have said over and over (and over and over and over and over and over) again that your "point" is ONLY that DDer's should (and I quote you here)

    "stop using poetic tones when promoting (DD) as a marriage saver".

    Okay...IF that is truly the only point you have been trying to convey here, I GOT IT so PLEASE, try to pry open your mind to, at least, hear my point:

    If someone enters a PRIVATE, ADULT, MEMBERSHIP ONLY on line DD community, we are absolutely justified in concluding that they either believe as we do OR are actively pursuing information with which to form an opinion for themselves.

    If we are "promoting it as a marriage saver" based on our own personal experience that DD actually HAS helped improved the majority of our marriages; we are "promoting" it WITHIN the confines of our PRIVATE,ADULT, MEMBER ONLY, LIKE-MINDED (there's that word again!)community...so my question for you is....SO WHAT??

    Are you now actually going to say that what is shared within our PRIVATE, ADULT, MEMBER ONLY community should be monitored and approved by some entity other than those within the community? Who exactly do you think should have that job...you?

    If you don't agree with DD why in the world would you join the group in the first place? (Well...we already know why YOU would...I was thinking in general...)

    And one last thing, Marjorie, that totally blows your "point" full of holes: you wrote in your May 10th post (and I quote you here):

    "If a woman is looking for a DD community she should have one."

    Okay...

    So what are we debating about here if not the simple fact that your sensibilities were assulted because you CHOSE to inflitrate a private DD community...a community you yourself have stated we should have....and are ultimately ticked off because, frankly, you just didn't like what you saw there?

    Is it possible that you've FINALLY realized that, in a poor attempt to mask your distaste for DD and make it appear as though you were leading some noble charge to protect the innocent, you went ahead made all this noise about how DD boards MUST be "kept private" and now see that YOU YOURSELF have helped make them public by posting your opinions about them on a PUBLIC, NON-RESTRICTIVE internet board such as this one?

    Feel free to continue to call us names, insult us and pass your judgments and then lable your admittedly deceptive and sneaky intentions "honorable" if you have to in order to sleep at night but, I for one, am done listening to you...what was it someone recently said here? Oh yeah....something about putting lipstick on a pig and calling her a princess...






    — Adult Woman · 2006-05-12 17:58 · #

  42. Majorie, there was one question you specifically asked that I just realized I neglected to address. You asked:

    "Why so many responses to my post in this thread.....has this become a cult hangout?"

    As to why your post to this thread has generated so much activity recently...Well, frankly, the reason seems pretty clear to me but I'd be happy to spell it out for you:

    1. You admittedly lied in order to gain access to a private on-line discussion board.

    2. THEN you proceeded to misrepresent yourself there for the sole purpose of gathering information intended not for someone with no tolerance for DD (like you) but for the like-minded members who actually belonged there.

    3. THEN you returned to another PUBLIC forum (this one) and misrepresented some of the information you dishonestly gathered by violating the exclusivity of that discussion group and, to add insult to injury, outright FABRICATED additional "information" in order to lend bogus credence to your dishonorable and wholly self-grandizing post.

    4. Obviously, word got out about your post which, had you NOT so blatently lied about your "experience" within our community, would probably have done nothing more than cause a collective groan among us that, yet again, another close-minded and uninformed judgement had been passed on our lifestyle choice.

    5. Since you DID blatently lie about your experience there, it compelled Caro to launch a TRULY honorable defense (of any online community in general) by simply calling you out on the parts of a specific thread you deliberatly misrepresented by taking it out of context and further compounded by lying AGAIN about a series of phantom posts you supposedly made but, after rigorous research, were nowhere to be found.

    (Those would specifically be the posts you claimed to have made within the group in which you said announced your intention to "quit DD" and the bogus responses you claimed to have been bombarded with from the "cult" intent on "brainwashing" you into our way of thinking).

    And please don't try to claim again that there's no way to know which board or which thread you "cited"...we both know which site it was.

    So to answer your question:

    Did you really believe that you could lie about your experiences and, in the process, intentionally attempt to asassinate the character, morality, intelligence and motives of an ENTIRE, private community of people and not risk being exposed for the liar you yourself have admitted you are?

    For goodness sake, Marjorie; you lied and you got caught. Deal with it.

    Wouldn't it have been so much easier to have simply stated the truth; you discovered that DD discussion board, you were facsinated enough by the subject of spanking to gain membership, you were appalled to learn that there was more to it than just a "spanking fetish".

    If you had then acted on your compulsion to offer your OPINION about DD and just admitted that your simply don't approve of it, you would have been taken far more seriously and treated with the common courtsey most reasonable people simply offer to someone with an opposing view.

    That's all I (and Louise) tried to do in our initial post to you: present (our personally experienced) "Pro" to counterpoint your "Con" in an effort to encourage a balanced debate on the subject of DD...a subject YOU opened for discussion in the first place.

    All Caro tried to do was expose your lies in order to defend, NOT DD, but a fundemental principle.

    Surfin' the Net simply tried to encourage you to intelligently and thoughtfully ADDRESS the arguments made in response to your posts rather than continue to repeat the same lies that had already been exposed or continue to resort to insults rather than the basic consideration of someone else's point of view.

    Haven't you noticed that there are no responses to your posts that support your vicious rantings? That's just an obeservation and not to say that your opinion about the practice of DD isn't valid, although,let's face it, this thread has LONG since ceased to be about "DD".

    So, go ahead, blast me again but before you do, you may want to ask yourself "How's that working for me?"




    — Adult Woman · 2006-05-13 02:26 · #

  43. First of all I was raised in a Catholic home with a mother who went to mass everyday along with saying the rosaries. My mother died holding her rosary beads. I believe in many of the things I was taught about religion some I do not. I am what you would say is a liberal Catholic. I do not preach the bible nor judge people by the scriptures. That is why I am not a bible beater.
    My father was also a devoted Catholic so yes I had alot of religion growing up. My father would have never disciplined my mother because she would have flattened him like a pancake. That being said they ran a business together for 30 years and died loving each other. My father once told me that in a marriage a good wife holds her man up. My mother did that she did that by sometimes saying things my dad did not want to hear her say. He also held her up he knew what she needed to make her life work he tried to give her (not materialistic)emotionally what she needed to function. They had fights all normal people do from each fight they would make up sometimes things would even change for the better.
    That to me is a normal marriage something you DD women should be living. It must be very odd to not be able to say something because you might be punished even if it would help a spouse. I don't call a DD relationship a marriage I consider it a form of master slave ownership.

    — Marjorie · 2006-05-13 07:31 · #

  44. Stop seeing yourself or your community as that important because you are not. I am not that big either so deal with it, or get over it. In reality we are a very small part of the population of the United State. Right now we are stuck on a subject that most people do not think about. They are thinking about how to pay their mortgage, kid's college or health, or other important things. For my own personal reason's I got stuck wanting to hold to my stand on this DD crap. I cannot stop crazy people from being crazy so how can I make you see my point. It is similar to how people view pro choice either you are for it or against it. A woman has the right of choice on many issues.

    — Marjorie · 2006-05-13 21:42 · #

  45. Listen I could have posted on all kinds of womens Libs sites about DD I did not do that. I looked for a site that was anti DD and I vented my feelings. You ladies have no other life except for this DD crap which connects you to a man which is your entire self existence. I did not post on a site that was pro DD I posted to an origianl posting against DD. What I think you ladies really do hate is I can say what I want and do what I want. No man is going to tell me to go stand in the corner or what ever it is that you ladies do to show respect. What respect does a man have for a women that is willing to submit to him like a silly child?

    — Marjorie · 2006-05-14 16:38 · #

  46. Listen I could have posted on all kinds of womens Libs sites about DD I did not do that. I looked for a site that was anti DD and I vented my feelings. You ladies have no other life except for this DD crap which connects you to a man which is your entire self existence. I did not post on a site that was pro DD I posted to an origianl posting against DD. What I think you ladies really do hate is I can say what I want and do what I want. No man is going to tell me to go stand in the corner or what ever it is that you ladies do to show respect. What respect does a man have for a women that is willing to submit to him like a silly child?

    — Marjorie · 2006-05-14 16:40 · #

  47. A question for the ladies on my tale. How do you feel about a womens right to choice? I guess privacy only applies to what suites your beliefs. You go around protesting at abortion centers even becoming violent. You are hipocrits to say I am sticking my nose in a place it does not belong. If that is not the kettle calling the pot black.
    The other thing is I have read on certain sites women telling men how they can manipulate their wife into DD. So none of you are with out SIN. You could just end this by not responding. Why is it that you seem to not be able to move on. Another site that thinks DD is a real issue is Sherri and Bob maybe you should spare with them.
    Good to GO.

    — Marjorie · 2006-05-15 08:49 · #

  48. Margot/Majorie/whoever,

    Absoloutely NOTHING about the way your lifestyle is "bad" about that, because it is the way that you and your husband, as responsible adult human beings have chosen to live. By the same token however, it is equally the right of another couple to choose to live their lives in a different way. If you really want to preserve the true principles of equality, freedom of choice and speech to which you refer in an earlier comment, then you cannot conveniently restrict it to those sections of society with whom you agree, and censor and silence the rest. To use your own analogy of the Nazi regime, Hitler started his campaign againdst the Jewish people with exactly the type of censorship and subtle control that you advocate here, and, when you consider that that particular exercise culminated in the murder of several million people, it's a pretty frightening prosepect.

    Incidentally, did you know that children in totalitarian regimes like the Nazi one are often taught to listen and isolate certain words in the speech of adults, which, if taken in separate context might imply subversion or rebellion against state principles. Some of the remarks you have made in your posts are particularly worrying in this respect because you too seem to have a marked propensity to make snap judgements based on very little evidence and comprehension of the use of contextual language. For example, because I defended the right of all people, and not those with whom I happen to agree, to have freedom of speech and choice, you pulled the label 'DDer' out of your proverbial hat and tried to use that as a weapon of dismissal. When Adult Woman posted, you created for her an entire' lifestyle' scenario, in which she is a person of deep religious conviction involved in a controlling 'community' which promotes the use of DD, All this from her use of the words "pious" and 'self-indulgence'. Oh and, by the way, 'being gay' is a state of being and is NOT a "lifestyle". You can BE gay and not lead a gay way of life. If you look the word up in any dictionary you will see that 'lifestyle' refers to the way in which a person lives or chooses to live. You can, for example, have a 'jetset' or 'bohemian' lifestyle, or you can lead a Christian lifestyle, or you might decide to to paint all your walls white, throw out all your furniture, and live a simple lifestyle. On the other hand, it is highly unlikely that today you will choose to adopt a vegetarian lifestyle and tomorrow, or when you want a change, you'll adopt a gay lifestyle instead. In a manner of speaking, even if you live in abusive relationship, which, as far as I can see, is about as far removed from the consensual nature of DD as it could be, it is still a way of life and therefore a 'lifestyle'.

    What you do not seem to comprehend when you utilise the principles of free speech and equality as an argument is that it is not the DD community who are trying to curtail these privileges, but you yourself. If all of society does not have the same rights then there IS no freedom or equality. There is also the disturbing question of just who is sufficiently 'qualified' to have this type of power over other people's private and intimate lives, and where this type of control should end. What if somebody in a position of influence decides that they don't like the way I make love with my husband, or they don't like what I talk about with my best friend? Are they going to put microphones and cameras in my house to make sure that I conduct my private life in the way that meets somebody else's idea of propriety? What penalties are there going to be if I fight for the same freedom of choice and speech that you claim to want every person to have?

    Another worrying factor is that, although you have quite clearly explored the question of DD in unusual depth for someone who claims to have an academic interest only, and have comminicated with a number of people inlvolved in DD relationships, you still choose to represent what you must know to be a very small minority of bad DD relationships among hundreds of successful and happy ones, as if they were the norm.

    I am in complete agreement with you that DD is not a 'magic fix' for every bad marriage and relationship. Similarly, it can be utilised by unscrupulous and violent men as a tool and/or justification for abuse. It has this in common with a million aubsive relationships and bad marriages in which DD has never been a factor. I found your illustration of a bad DD relationship to be particularly interesting because it follows the pattern of my own first marriage in the sense of verbal abuse but there was never any DD or spanking involved. I would say that, in your acquaintance's case, the problem wasn't with the DD or spanking fetish but with the relationship itself, and these were just the factors that served to bring a hidden problem to the surface. I am also rather intrigued by the fact that you appear to believe that the way to cure a 'fetish' is to deny people the opportunity to talk about it and pretend that it isn't there. As for women who want this being 'childish', let me see if I have this right - if an adult woman and her husband decide privately between themselves what they want from their relationship, then that is to act like a 'silly child''. However if YOU deny them that freedom of choice and power of adult decision by telling them how to run their lives, then it's okay and it isn't childish? Hmmmmm..... there has to be something slightly odd in that logic.

    Should DD people 'promote' what they do to people in general? No - they should continue what they do now and discuss these matters exclusively in private forums and meeting places with people of like mind. That way, people who have a genuine and honest interest in what DD entails can read, learn, and decide whether DD is right for them. The alternative is for people to go into such relationships 'blind' and perhaps find out that it isn't for them the hard way. What won't work is for people like you to pretend it isn't there and hope it will go away if you stop people talkiing about it.

    " How do you feel about a womens right to choice? " Well I think that every woman should have this - even the ones that don't agree with you.

    " I guess privacy only applies to what suites your beliefs". Iif nothing else, you have proved admirably that this is how YOU regard privacy.

    "You go around protesting at abortion centers even becoming violent " Oh my goodness, where did you dig this completely unrelated subject up? Although of course, if I wanted to, " go around protesting at abortion centers" shouldn't I be allowed to under the principles of freedom and equality that you keep telling us that you are defending? Or maybe I shouldn't be allowed to express my view because it doesn't tally with yours. In your eyes there may be a difference between the two curtailments of freedom, but in mine there is not.

    "The other thing is I have read on certain sites women telling men how they can manipulate their wife into DD." Sorry my dear, but the wife still has the final choice provided that you don't take it away from her. People can manipulate all they want, just as you have manipulated the facts for your own convenience here on the blog, but an intelligent and adult women will not accept what she does not want whether you want to believe that or not.

    " So none of you are with out SIN". Following your logic in an earlier thread I would have to conclude from your use of the word 'SIN' that you are a person of strong religious conviction who has been manipulated by her church into believing that DD is wrong.

    "You could just end this by not responding. Why is it that you seem to not be able to move on".
    Now let me see - this is a thread in which there are almost 50 posts by a number of people and, upwards of 30 or more of them were made by you. Could it be that YOU can't move on unless you get the last word?

    'Hypocrisy? Well I'm not even going to touch that one in regard to your behaviour..........

    Caro

    — Caro · 2006-05-16 10:30 · #

  49. Caro:
    You lied when you said you were not in a DD relationship. Your reasons may not have been as deceptive as mine except you lied. The next thing you did was get all the chuch gals to join in. I did not go to my book club, ladies night out or other social groups to gain strength for my argument. I am a big girl and I wear my own pants or skirt.
    I am assuming you have a college education, I have come to this conclusion because you have excellent grammar & writing skills. I am also assuming it was a Christian College so your thoughts have been influenced by deep routed Christian values. Your family was most probably deep routed Christians. So they had alot of influence on your thinking. I was raised Catholic except I left the church when I was 16 because I did not believe that Christ existed. My parents did not like the idea but they accepted what I felt. It is probable that in your family this would not have been accepted. So to say my thoughts are from my religous upbringing is not accurate. My thoughts and convictions are my own. I have been exposed to many things in my life so I have had the oppurtunity to come to my own conclusions. That includes working with emotionally and physically abused women. So I own my thoughts no one else does it is a neat concept you should try it.
    Where you live being gay might not be a life style, where I live it is a life style. Tell the couple down the street who just adopted their second child that they are not living a lifestyle. They would love to differ. So we obviously come from two very different places (thank God), we will never agree.
    The thing that has me stuck is I said that private boards should be allowed.
    1. I quoted originally from a board that was private. This is not the board I had the relationship with the woman on. I apoligized for repeating the story it just blew me away that this woman was physically treated that way.
    2. I did have a relationship with a woman I met on a OPEN BOARD no membership this board is associated with a respected provider. This is what I said should be stopped.
    3. I will never agree with you ladies, You will never agree with me. So why are we continuing down this path this could be the endless hole.
    4. I did go back to believing in Christ. I thank God I had parents that allowed me to explore life and come to my own conclusions.
    5. Why do you need this kind of discipline? No one in any of your posting as ever clearly described why this is so important.
    6. I want state being Gay is a lifestyle. DD is not something you can walk around many places and people will say that is acceptable. Yesterday when I was checking out at the store they asked for a donation for abused women. I think many people would think this is wrong.
    You are so draining and yes I usually do get the last word.

    — Marjorie · 2006-05-17 07:41 · #

  50. Boy oh boy. More and more assumptions. First, no I am not college educated. I have worked full time in various levels of the same job since I left school at eighteen years old. My education was entirely and exclusively secular except that it took place long enough ago for Christian-based daily school 'assemblies' to be the norm - oh and when I was very young I did attend the local church Sunday School because my parents, who were not at all religious themselves, believed that it was correct for a child to be brought up in a Christian way. (remember this was a long time ago and social conventions were different). Like most small children I trustingly believed that God existed and all the bible stories were true until I got became old enough to question the whole thing. That was how things were until I once again rethought it as a young adult and realised that I did have beliefs after all. For a few years I went to church on a regular basis, but that eventually tailed off and now I still have the beliefs but they are not 'conventionalised' by church attendance and have not been for very many years. So you see, there are no 'church gal' associations here and you are once again completely wide of the mark. I know one of the ladies who posted here because she used the same name that she uses on various DD groups, but she's a very strong minded and independent individual and would not respond to coercion from me or anyone else even if it had ben given. The other people who posted here I do not know at all or maybe I do but they are posting under different names from the ones by which I know them. Either way, I didn't talk anybody into posting here so I have to assume that they they made that decision for themselves. Incidentally, my comment about your use of the word "sin" was tongue-in-cheek and was supposed to illustrate to you the dangers inherent on your habit of deciding that you know all about somebody's life on the strength of one or two words. My point was that this is what you did in respect of Adult Woman when she used the words 'pious' and self-indulgent'. Interestingly you have proved me right because you have gone right ahead and done exactly the same with me.

    As regards whether or not I am in a DD relationship, it is clear that you would believe whatever you wanted to even if you could observe my daily life with my husband, so I'm not going to waste my time trying to tell you otherwise. However, if you think of that old age adage,

    " I may not agree with what you say, but I defend your right to say it"

    you might get some idea of where I am REALLY coming from in this debate. If you want to know why people in these relationships want or need this discipline then maybe you should ask them. My interest in the matter is more in the way of a defense of free speech and choice.

    The 'gay lifestyle' thing........... What you said was that "being gay" was a lifestyle. My response was that you can BE gay and not lead a gay 'lifestyle'. For instance, I can guarantee that you have met more gay people than you realise, because many such people do not overtly live a gay lifestyle. It is true that the paricular couple to whom you refer have chosen to a adopt way of life or 'lifestyle' that reflects this, but they would still BE gay even if they hadn't. The word 'lifestyle' simply denotes the way in which a person, or people, choose to live and, as such , if you choose to live your life to include DD then that's a way of life choice and therefore a 'lifestyle'.

    About 'promoting' DD. Now, you may or may not have seen DD mentioned initially on some kind of secular or anti-DD board. I do not know because you have not told us how you originally became aware of it so I will make no judgements or assumptions on this. What you HAVE told us yourself, however, is that, in order to find groups and sites on this subject, you had to run a Google search. Think very carefully about what this implies............... It means that you cannot find such a website or group unless you are specifically looking for it - therefore no such website is 'public' in the way that you imply.

    Finally, once again in making the association between the "emotionally and physically abused women" with whom you have worked, and consenting adult women who have exercised their right of free choice as to how to live their private and personal lives, you have presumed to tell other people how to run their lives on the strength of your inaccurate opinion. To play God in this way is very judgemental, dictatorial and frankly dangerous. As to whether real abused women or the people who work to help them would approve of DD, I doubt most of them have any concept of its existance so, unless people like you choose to remove it from private discussion areas and force it onto the public domain, it won't be an issue for them or anyone else.

    I too find this discussion draining, because you seem to be incapable of seeing that what you are promoting as women's rights is actually the direct opposite. However, much as you might like us (dders and exponents of women's right alike) to sit down and let you walk all over us - sorry - it isn't going to happen.

    Caro


    — Caro · 2006-05-18 05:25 · #

  51. Caro,
    I don't care what you say when an adult is not making their own decision's right or wrong as those decisions might be it is wrong. Women are adults and should be treated along with acting like adults. So how you can say no obeying one's spouse will get you punished is control emotional along with physical abuse. That is why in some states this is not legal.
    I would never give my friend's your postings to read I am not a bitch in nuns clothing.
    Marjorie

    — Marjorie · 2006-05-18 14:07 · #

  52. Marjorie,

    What you say is quite true in many respects, except that the laws of which you speak were put into place to protect women/victims of genuine physical abuse who were, and are, not in a position to protect themselves. They were NOT intended to be used as a means to violate the rights and privacy of couples who have chosen mutually to adopt a particular way of life within the private and personal confines of their own marriage or relationship. Furthermore, it isn't illegal for two people to make such an arrangement, it is only illegal for one person to perpetrate violence upon another. In each case it is the perogative of the authorities and/or judiciary of the state or country concerned to decide whether or not this has occurred.

    May I suggest that you consider your own words in this particular context:-

    "I don't care what you say when an adult is not making their own decision's right or wrong as those decisions might be it is wrong"

    There you have it in a nutshell, and from your own keyboard. Whether or not we make what others perceive as the RIGHT decisions, the choice to make them belongs to the responsible adult individual and not to anyone else.

    In the spirit of the public nature of this blog, you may pass on, with my blessing, anything that I have written here, to whomever you wish. The only courtesy that I would ask is that, in doing so, you use my actual words and not your personal interpretation of them.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2006-05-19 13:51 · #

  53. Caro,
    A couple of questions since you know everything. Why do you feel men are superior? Why do you feel that men have the right to discipline women like children? You have stated that many women ask their husbands for DD, this is why I think they want DD. They are putting men in the position of being their father not husband. The reason I think they do this is children usually are not abandoned by parents. So if you become his child not his equal he will never leave you. Women suffer from the fear of abandoment. I see a connection to the symptoms of Electra Complex in these women. They have unresolved issues with their fathers. They even may have had secret sexual desires towards there fathers that they are not even aware of having. This could be another reason for wanting DD.

    Your analogy of keeping things in the closet is hysterical. Most gay people do not want to live in the closet it is a very painful place to live. My sister's husband announced to her after their last child left for college he was gay. I went to support meetings with her it was called a lifestyle choice he made. He now is living with his lover in his new life style. DD's cannot tell to many people about their practice people would have a problem understanding. So to compare you closet ladies to a gay life style is inacurate. Then you have the nerve to say I am deceptive you and your closet are not quite open.
    I also think you are the biggest bunch of one sided bitches I have ever dealt with. For a bunch of Christians you know nothing of forgiving you just are relentless.
    Keep on dishing out your responses, I will alway reply.
    CYA

    — Marjore · 2006-05-19 14:43 · #

  54. Caro:
    In some states not red state most probably. It is illegal even if both parties agree. I am certain of that. For a person talking about changing other peoples words look at how you changed my word around (again that is the kettle calling the pot black).
    Cya

    — Marjorie · 2006-05-20 12:38 · #

  55. I have been so preoccupied with Caro that I would like to adress Adults woman remark about conversion. To me conversion means to change your religous beliefs You are not a religion this is a practice. It is like practicing Black Magic or something totally out of the norm. No I don't think anyone unless they had issues would be so moved by this thread to want to change their life. Especially when it means allowing a man to physically and emotionally control you.
    You know ladies this back and forth is becoming a ritual. Who is going to stop posting so we can end this back and forth. I am not going to be the one to stop posting because I feel I have been attacked. I never exposed anyone or hurt anyone I stated my opinion. Oh and by the way when a few of the women I conversed with needed to talk about issues besides DD I gave some advice. I was never rude to any of them so big deal. I bet some of the women you ladies converse with online are probably men looking to get sexually aroused. Have you ever thought of that.
    Cya,
    Margot

    — Margot · 2006-05-20 13:18 · #

  56. Dear Majorie,

    I can't give you the answers to all your questions because quite honestly, I don't KNOW what the answers are. As a matter of interest, it wasn't me that said that most DD relationships were initiated by the woman, although I agree with the poster that it is so. Personally, I think that your theories are completely wide of the mark because I have seen no evidence whatsoever to support anything that you say, but even if they were correct, that still doesn't mean that you have the right to make other people's decisions for them. I am also very confused as to where the Electra Complex, which is basically a theory that some girls suffer from something called 'penis envy', comes into a discussion about DD. However, if you REALLY have questions about what motives people have for entering into these relationships and are prepared to listen to the answers that you are given, perhaps you could do what I suggested in an earlier comment and ask the people concerned.

    All I can say is that it seems to me that most people who are in DD relationships are perfectly happy and contented as a result, and, if it works for them, I can't see why you have this all consuming urge to change such a private and personal thing. Perhaps it would benefit you to use some of your much advertised analytical skills to examine the reasons why you have such an obsession with, and need to control, what goes on in other people's private lives and relationships. I don't say that this is the case, because I do not know you, but you might like to consider the possibility that there is something missing in your own life.

    I am sorry that you think that the idea that people keep things in the closet is 'hysterical'. Personally, although you state sarcastically that I 'know everything,' I would not presume to know all there is to know about the lives of everyone I encounter. In my experience, unless people are very sure of what reaction they will receive, there are certain things they will hold back until a bond of trust has been established. It is true that the present social climate is more tolerant about certain factors than it was in the past, but, as your hostility to the DD lifetyle demonstrates, there is still a great deal of prejudice and fear in this world about what people do not understand. If you honestly believe that it is only people who practise DD err on the side of caution because of this kind of ignorance then you are living in a fantasy world. The fact of the matter is that the 'happy couple' next door to you may both have gay lovers or be into wife swapping; that lady you met briefly at the church social may be in a DD relationship; and that nice man down the street may be abusing his wife, but they are hardly likely to tell you that just because you say happen to say 'Hi' when you pass them on the street. My point is that just because people APPEAR to be leading a conventional lifestyle, that does not make it so.

    As to your sister's unfortunate experience, this only confirms what I have just said. Her husband was presumably gay all along, but he kept it secret or, 'in the closet,' for many years so that even his own wife did not know, and did not make the choice to openly adopt a gay lifestyle until after the children had left to go to college.

    Again I am a little confused by your closing comments. I do not dispute and never have, that any person who chooses to live in a particular way is living a 'lifestyle'. Your sister's husband, who formerly lived a heterosexual lifestyle with her, has now made the choice to live a gay lifestyle with his new lover. People who have chosen to incorporate DD into their lives have chosen to live a DD lifestyle. The word 'lifestyle' simply denotes the way in which people live or choose to live. Whether the lifestyle is public or private doesn't change the fact. I didn't decide that personally - it's what any dictionary will tell you.

    "DD's cannot tell to many people about their practice people would have a problem understanding."
    Not necessarily. The fact that YOU have a problem understanding isn't necessarily indicative of anyone else's capabilities in this area. Anyway, forgive me if I have got this wrong, but didn't you WANT 'DDers' to stay out of the public domain?

    "For a bunch of Christians":

    First, who is it who says DDers or people who defend the rights of free speech and choice are "a bunch of Christians"? Oh, that's right - it was another one of your ungrounded assumptions. The reality was that one poster said that she was a practising Christian, but the rest said that their DD had nothing to do with religion.

    " you know nothing of forgiving you just are relentless".
    What exactly is it that you want to be forgiven for? Are you feeling guilt about something?

    "I also think you are the biggest bunch of one sided bitches I have ever dealt with"
    Well it would be nice if you were mature enough to conduct a conversation without metaphorically stamping your foot, calling people names, and generally behaving like a two year old in tantrum mode because she can't get her own way, but I'll pass over that and address your other point. How do you define, a 'one sided bitch'? Could it be anyone who stands up to your dictatorial attitude and defends her right to free choice and speech? Come to that - let's consider your own contribution to the debate. Yep, it's a 'one sided' point of view that you have defended 'relentlessy'. Congratulations; I guess that, by your own definition, that makes you one a 'one sided bitch' too. Or maybe, as in the case of free speech and choice, there is one rule for you and another for anyone who doesn't happen to agree with what you say.

    "Keep on dishing out your responses, I will alway reply."
    Thank you for the invitation, I will take you up on that.

    Sincerely,
    Caro

    — Caro · 2006-05-20 18:32 · #

  57. This Thread is Called Domestic Discipline:Abuse by any other name. I am not the person who posted it. I just responded to the site with my feeling on DD. So why is it only me that you are attacking? How about the person who posted the first post? Why are you ladies so reactive to me? Is it just because I went onto one of your sacred sites, get over it. Maybe this could stop this entire subject.

    — Margot · 2006-05-21 16:57 · #

  58. This Thread is Called Domestic Discipline:Abuse by any other name. I am not the person who posted it. I just responded to the site with my feeling on DD. So why is it only me that you are attacking? How about the person who posted the first post? Why are you ladies so reactive to me? Is it just because I went onto one of your sacred sites, get over it. Maybe this could stop this entire subject.

    — Margot · 2006-05-21 16:57 · #

  59. Wow, Marjorie, you have definitely lost your cool in the last few days. You've resorted to making personal attacks rather than discussing the topic. And yes, those could be reasons for a woman choosing DD. A serial killer may have tortured people because his puppy died at age six. A tree may have fallen because a butterfly flapped its wings in China. Those last two theories have about as much to do with this discussion as your assumptions. It seems that when you have no response to people's criticisms of your writing, you throw down another path for people to follow. Distraction is a very powerful tool; I hope it works for you so you can avoid the pain of admitting to yourself and others that you have no defense. And on the topic of gay people coming out because it's accepted, that is a new development. Just a few decades ago it was kept just as quiet as DD. The evolution of society allowed for homosexuals to reveal their lives, just as it allowed for unwed or teenage mothers, divorce, women in the work place, and many other formerly taboo things. And eventually society might allow for DDers to openly live their lives. Although I have to say that even if it were a widely accepted practice, I doubt that those who live this lifestyle would flaunt it, or even discuss it with that many people in their day to day lives. It's considered a private matter between husband and wife much like many other aspects of their marriage. That is why they turn to internet discussion boards, anonymity. They feel that they can discuss their lives, get and give input, and feel like part of something bigger without the risk of running into someone in the store and knowing that THAT person knows what happens behind my bedroom door. And this doesn't just apply to DD; it's the reason for countless discussion groups, chat rooms, and personal websites. Men and women aren't being deceptive as you accused them of; rather they are keeping their private lives private without feeling ashamed or boxed in. And yes, even posting specific details on an open forum or a membership forum is keeping it private. As far as posters are concerned, the readers do not have a face or a role in their lives.

    — MK · 2006-05-22 00:31 · #

  60. Caro,
    Thank you, I am a BITCH and proud of it. So if I called you ladies a bunch of bitches it must mean I do admire your spunk. This is actually getting to be interesting. Maybe we should start our own Blog it could even become a cable network show. I can find some anti DD'ers to join we could even get sponsors. It goes by clicks to sites how much a sponsor has to pay to advertise on the site. We will make so much money. Many sites that promote DD do it for profit by promoting spanking products. So this is just a new angle. I am good to go, what do you ladies say?

    It is not the sites you ladies share on that I am complaining about it is sites like Taken in Hand, they are designed like Valentines day cards that scares me. They make it look like try this and your crappy abusive marriage will be great. So a poor girl reads this shares it with no one except the abusive ass she is married to. The next thing you know he really hurts her, that is my problem. You belong to a church that believes in the practice of DD. The minister,reverant or who ever would most probably be preaching to a close community. If one of you ladies saw a women who seemed to be in trouble I have a feeling you would do something. Look at how defensive you have been with me. So in the world you live in and practice DD you have support. I would not want to see a woman abused or even end up dead because they did not understand what they read. Keep it private make your own sites with applications to join. Now if you put erotic sex into google you can find DD. That is my problem that is what first bothered me 1 1/2 years ago was how this was being promoted.
    By the way no one likes to be called a homosexual it is Gay or Alternative lifestyle. Calling a person a homosexual is disrespectful.
    Cya

    — Marjorie · 2006-05-22 12:48 · #

  61. "Caro:
    In some states not red state most probably. It is illegal even if both parties agree. I am certain of that. For a person talking about changing other peoples words look at how you changed my word around (again that is the kettle calling the pot black).
    Cya"

    Marjorie, I have not changed your words around in the least. In each case they are reproduced exactly as you originally wrote them. I know this because I copied and pasted them directly from your posts. As to the subject of what is illegal and what is not, I think that you have yet again misunderstood. What I said was that the ARRANGEMENT itself is not illegal. What MIGHT possibly be deemed illegal is if someone overheard a man actually spanking his wife and reported it to the authorities. My point was that, although, in some states it is mandatory for the police to make an arrest whether or not a wife claims consensuality, this is still dependent on whether the police judge from their own observations at the scene that the alleged offence has taken place. Although this may differ from officer to officer, a number of current and former police officers of my acquaintance have told me that, in such cases, they would seperately question the two persons involved, look for obvious physical evidence like cuts or bruises on the face and try to judge whether the alleged victim showed any signs of distress or nervousness. Basically, if they see no evidence that an incident has taken place, they still do not have to arrest anyone. Even on those occasions that they DO arrest the alleged perpetrator, it does not follow that the authorities will prosecute if they do not judge that there is a case to be answered. So, yes, technically for a man to spank his wife is considered assault in the law of some states, but, in reality, it is not quite as simple as it seems.

    You ask why people have taken exception to your comments when they did not take the same exception to the blogger's original post. I obviously cannot speak for anyone else, but, for me, the reasons are fairly straightfoward. To begin with, the focus of the original post was chiefly that the blogger objected to the assertion that DD is scriptural. Since, in my experience, that is also the opinion of most people who practise DD, there was nothing to disagree with there. On the question of wifely submission, opinion in Christian circles varies greatly, but the writer treated that aspect with respect, even though he may not agree with everyone's interpretation, and argued only that SPANKING/DD is not advocated by the bible. Secondly, while the one or two instances that he quotes to support the misuse of DD are of a very rare and unusual nature, he does not make wild and unfounded claims that this is the norm but simply points out that this is what CAN happen in the guise of DD. Finally, although his opposition to the practise of DD and his reasons for this are clearly and plainly stated, at no point does he advocate a witch hunt, censorship, or persecution of the people concerned. On the contrary, he is keen for people to examine their OWN motives for themselves and to come back to what he perceives as God's way of their OWN volition. In the entire post, there is nothing personal, restrictive or dictatorial, due respect is shown to everyone concerned and there is no evidence that the information that he has gathered on DD was obtained in a dishonest or immoral way.

    Compare that with your own conduct both on the DD groups and here on the blog and you may have some concept of the reasons why people have reacted to your attacks on their rights and your agressivea and dictatorial attitude in the way that they have.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2006-05-22 13:41 · #

  62. MK,
    This Homosexual thing really has me pissed. Do not compare how someone is physically born to a DV lifestyle. People are gay because that is the way they are not a choice they made. If you have ever had a gay friend or family member you would get it. No! probably you would also be judgemental and say they could change if they wanted. I don't know what part of the country you live in I am sure it is a RED STATE because where I live DD would never be accepted. Especially considering we are mostly well educated women who can make our own choices. I also saw the movie about the boy who was a murdered because his father killed his puppy. That is a very abstract movie for such a close minded person. I have never disregarded anyones anonyminity so that is full of holes. Why can't you admit you cannot stand the fact that I tricked one of your DD followers and let it go. I was even there for her when she lost her mother I emailed her a few times a day to see if she was allright. So I never meant to hurt anyone I just wanted to study the impact on womens lives when they get involved with internet relationships. Relationships with a sexual component as the foundation & originator of the relationship. Then I stumbled on to DD and the light bulb that I honestly wish went off never went off.
    Except I am going to stand my ground. I have said it before how many pervs do you think you ladies have chatted about intimate things have used this to you know what. To me that is deceptive. Personal attacks are what you ladies are good at you just don't like the fact I shoot back.
    FYI my grandmother lost an eye because of DV. My grandfather was a great guy with a dark side. He did this when he pushed her against a wall she had issues with her eyes prior to the push. The pressure from the impact caused an infection which they could not stop. So how a bunch of middle aged women are stupid enough to say this is not a way of causing permanent physical damage is STUPID.
    Cya

    — Marjorie · 2006-05-22 16:01 · #

  63. Oh Marjorie, you poor thing! Your own opinion of yourself is so over the top I have to wonder if perhaps you need some counseling? Now you're telling us that because YOU define the word "convert" one way, I am equating my LIFESTYLE choice to a religion?

    It is patently obvious that you are incapable of participating in an intelligent, civil DEBATE (look that word up...it means to discuss BOTH sides of an issue). You've made it very clear that you are unable or unwilling to, in the very least, concede that there ARE, in fact, TWO sides to the topic of DD. (The fact that there are those who agree with it and those who do not is evidence of that).

    I originially thought you were genuinely interested in understanding the side of this topic in which people CHOOSE to incorporate it. Your myriad of posts have made it clear that you are only interested in expressing your view and convincing the masses that YOU ARE RIGHT.

    Which, by itself, would be fine but when you factor in your ridiculous assumptions about other posters religious beliefs, moral beliefs and self images and THEN resort to name calling and degradation ALL WHILE TRYING TO CONVINCE EVERYONE HERE THAT YOU DO IT TO PROTECT INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM OF CHOICE you come off sounding, forgive my bluntness, like an idiot.

    Do us all a favor and please just say what you mean:

    "I, Marjorie, wish to protect the absolute right to personal choice...as long as that choice is one that I would make".

    Just out of curiosity, are you actually READING any of the responses to you or just looking for key words to latch onto and attack (like "convert", "lifestyle", "christian")?

    Caro has made some very intelligent counterpoints to your "points" which you either respond to by personally attacking her or just entirely ignore.

    We all get that YOU wouldn't consent to DD. Which is great, that's YOUR choice. Why is it so hard for you to just SAY that and "move on"? Why are you compelled to keep insisting that your "con" approach to DD is based in your advocacy of the right to personal freedom and choice when CLEARLY you DON'T believe in that basic right...unless the freedoms and choices are the same as YOURS.

    — Adult Woman · 2006-05-23 08:05 · #

  64. Adult Woman:
    My road or the high road not at all. When it comes to the reasons I have said I am so appauled by this DD crap you have given no acceptance or understanding. You ladies want people to say it is wonderful an enlighment that you have in your marriages that other marriages are missing. If anyone objects then they are wrong,misguided and stupid. You ladies remind me of the ladies in Big Love, BRAIN WASHED.

    I have said it before I will say it again you cannot change people who do not want to change. Have a wonderful life giving up your God Given rights to make decisions (smart safe decisions). I hope one day when life starts winding down you don't look back and say to yourself I never lived my life I lived someone elses life they choose for me to live. I have a real life this is getting stupied we will never reach a middle point. I also am begining to see this is entertainment for a bunch of bored ladies. I much rather be playing golf.
    Au Revoir,
    Margot

    — Marjorie · 2006-05-24 11:45 · #

  65. Majorie you wrote:

    "Calling someone a homosexual is disrespectful"

    My mouth actually dropped open at the absolute arrogance you have to even write that!

    Calling someone a "bitch", "brainwashed" and "stupid" and labling someone else's choices "silly", "childish" and "cultish" is ALSO disrespectful.

    But I guess up on that high horse you ride YOU get to define that word YOUR way too.

    — Adult Woman · 2006-05-24 15:11 · #

  66. First of all, homosexual is not an offensive term. Perhaps a few of your friends are offended by it, but not everyone finds it disrespectful. Second of all, I never even implied that homosexuality was a choice. I believe very strongly that it is not a choice. And by the way, I DO have gay family members. More than one. And where do YOU get off calling ME judgemental, lady? I think you should take a step outside of yourself and re-read these posts. Maybe then you'll see what the rest of us seem to. And my reference to the serial killer had nothing to do with any movie, I was pointing out how inane and assuming your "theories" about the source of DD were. And in regards to me comparing "how someone is born to a DD lifestyle", I was simply illustrating the fact that what is not accepted in society in one decade might be the next. And of course you don't want to respond to the anonymity issue, because then you might have to admit that I'm right and DDers are not interested in promoting and recruiting. All I was saying was that they, like others, want to keep their private life private. I can't decide whether you are purposely misconstruing people's words, or you truly don't understand their arguments. Sometimes it seems as though you don't quite grasp what people are trying to say.

    — MK · 2006-05-24 17:43 · #

  67. Adult woman:
    Before I end this I can do bettter then you with word slamming. I am not a poor thing that is so sad you must have been told that as a child or woman. I actually have been a rich thing some monetary except mostly with lifes enrichments arts, travel and most of all education. So I would consider you a poor thing with a sore ass.
    Cya

    — Margot · 2006-05-24 20:14 · #

  68. Marjorie,

    Don't you realize that all your non-responsive hateful words do is make you look pathetic?

    Truly, Marjorie, you come across as unnaturally self involved. I actually almost feel sorry for you. What a genuinely sad commentary that is about the kind of woman you must be and the joyless life you must lead as a consequence of your intolerance, uncompassion and hate for people who don't share your opinions. (And I suspect there are more than a few of those kind of people in your "real life"...that may be something you really need to think about).

    I, for one can't justify encouraging the abnormally vicious intolerance, ugliness and hate you spew any longer and encourage you to seek professional help before it destroys any semblance of decency, civility and just plain human kindness that you may have left within you.

    You ought to be ashamed of yourself and your conduct here.

    — Adult Woman · 2006-05-25 14:41 · #

  69. "Thank you, I am a BITCH and proud of it. So if I called you ladies a bunch of bitches it must mean I do admire your spunk."

    As far as I am concerned, you may apply any label that you wish, including, 'bitch' to yourself. but please try to remember later in the conversation, as you have consistently failed to on other matters, that it was you who introduced the word into this conversation in the first place and you who decided that it applied to you.

    "This is actually getting to be interesting. Maybe we should start our own Blog it could even become a cable network show. I can find some anti DD'ers to join we could even get sponsors. It goes by clicks to sites how much a sponsor has to pay to advertise on the site. We will make so much money. Many sites that promote DD do it for profit by promoting spanking products. So this is just a new angle. I am good to go, what do you ladies say?"

    I feel that it would lend far more credibilty to your arguments if you were to check your facts before presenting them as the truth. I say this because the assumption that DD sites are paid to advertise the services of commercial concerns is yet another red herring. What you see on these sites, including 'Taken in Hand' (which, incidentally is NOT strictly a 'DD' site in any case) , are free LINKS to subject related sites, and not the commercial advertisements that you seem to assume. Of course some of the linked sites ARE of a commercial nature, and don't pretend to be anything else, but that doesn't mean that they pay to 'advertise' on the DD sites.

    No need to explain this a second time because I already dealt with your misconception in the previous paragraph. If you and your fellow anti freedom campaigners want to try to exploit people's personal lives and choices in this way then by all means do so, but please be careful that the extra weight of all that dirty money doesn't topple you off that moral high ground on which you are so precariously perched.

    "It is not the sites you ladies share on that I am complaining about it is sites like Taken in Hand, they are designed like Valentines day cards that scares me. They make it look like try this and your crappy abusive marriage will be great. So a poor girl reads this shares it with no one except the abusive ass she is married to.

    The next thing you know he really hurts her, that is my problem."

    Why is it that you continue to frequent these sites if they alarm you and send your imagination off into overdrive in this way? Why not concentrate your energies in areas where there are REAL instances of domestic violence and people who actually need your help? Wouldn't that be more constructive and useful than worrying about some completely hypothetical possibility that has probably never occurred and never will? I don't suppose there is any point in reminding you that, in order to find sites on this subject, you anyway had to 'Google' a search using specific key words, and the chances of anyone 'stumbling on such a site by accident are extremely remote.

    I must say that I am particularly surprised that you pick on the 'Taken In Hand' website to try to support your theories, because the stated purpose of this site is the discussion of both the pros and cons of 'power exchange' relationships and posters are encouraged to present and explore all facets of such such arrangements. As such, the site includes articles both for and against such relationships, and isn't the best example of a place that advocates, let alone romanticises, DD.

    " You belong to a church that believes in the practice of DD. The minister,reverant or who ever would most probably be preaching to a close community."

    This "church of St Marjorie" is another example of something that only exists only in your imagination and I doubt very much that you would be able to find such a place in real life even if you had the urge to do so.

    " If one of you ladies saw a women who seemed to be in trouble I have a feeling you would do something."

    Any reasonable person would help someone who was GENUINELY in need of that help. However, most of us would not manufacture problems that did not exist and use that as an excuse to invade another person's privacy

    "Look at how defensive you have been with me.

    Marjorie, turn that statement around to read "Look at how defensive I have been with you" and all will be revealed to you.


    "So in the world you live in and practice DD you have support. I would not want to see a woman abused or even end up dead because they did not understand what they read."

    Having read your contributions to this thread and seen your close mindedness and complete lack of understanding, I would have to agree that, for people who think as you do, this might actually be a problem. One more reason for you and others with the same problems to stay away from what you are not able to comprehend.

    "Keep it private make your own sites with applications to join."

    Does that mean you are actually going to allow people to take part in these sites without your '1984' style supervision?

    "Now if you put erotic sex into google you can find DD. That is my problem that is what first bothered me 1 1/2 years ago was how this was being promoted."

    LOL - You are priceless! If one of your theories gets discredited, you just make up a new one. Did you try the Google thing just before you wrote it? I had to give it a go for myself, and I found 35,600,000 entries for 'erotic sex'. I searched the headings using the google search facility on the first hundred pages and guess how many mentions of DD and spanking I found? Yep - you are absolutely correct - there wasn't a single one! Do tell me how many of those sites you had to go into and search in detail before you found a mention of either activity. Yet again you have proved by your own actions that it is almost impossible to find a mention of DD or even spanking without searching exculsively and specifically for those topics. So much for 'promotion'. By the way, you never did tell us how you knew that 'DD' existed in the first place as something you could search for so I have to conclude that you were looking for spanking sites when you came across it. Could be that there is something that you are not telling us here.


    "By the way no one likes to be called a homosexual it is Gay or Alternative lifestyle. Calling a person a homosexual is disrespectful."

    Sorry Marjorie, but there are in fact several Gay organisations that include the word 'Homosexual' in their names by choice. By the same token there are gay groups that condemn the use of the words 'Alternative Lifestyle' to describe their sexual orientation because it implies a choice rather than the genetic condition they beieve it to be.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2006-05-25 23:18 · #

  70. It is erotic sex submissive women. I was looking for relationships made between women on the internet with a sexual component. I was looking for submissive women. Let it go. Get a fucking life.

    — Margot · 2006-05-26 12:57 · #

  71. What do you ladies say about sending a donaton to Hillary for President. I am voting for her(get the message/suggestion). I think we should all say good-bye. What ever I respond to you are ready to poke holes into. There is power in numbers my 8 year old knows that. I would not give this site to any one to jump on the band wagon. I can fight my own battles. It is the same respect I showed to the ladies on the site I was on. I could have ended this crap a month ago told you the site my postings are all still on the site. I did not do that out of respect for the people on that site. I will never live in your world nor will you live in mine. So let it go I am a responsive person and you keep pushing my buttons by twisting everything I say to attack me. By the way they change search engines in google every week. Another inacurate statement is that these sites are not about money, most sites are in it for money if they do not sell something the sites they send you to do pay them for refering. Do you honestly think they do this for free? You ladies need to start reading the business news more to see how the world works. I know it was a submissive women site I came on first, but why does that matter. Anyway I am off to play golf with my hubby have a nice day.

    — Margot · 2006-05-27 05:26 · #

  72. Okay, leave the poor deluded girl alone. She's obviously overwhelmed, probably intellectually tapped out. She's not even bothering with the issue anymore, but she's having trouble letting go. So why don't we make it easier for her? Just a suggestion...

    — MK · 2006-05-28 03:22 · #

  73. Marjorie,

    "It is erotic sex submissive women. I was looking for relationships made between women on the internet with a sexual component. I was looking for submissive women. Let it go. Get a fucking life."


    I originally Googled the key words that YOU said were the ones that you used to find the DD sites and, as I said, had absolutely no luck. Following your rather rude and petulant post (my sex life is absolutely fine thank you), I tested out your conveneinently amended version of the key words and found umpteen sites on fetish, 'fantasy' and 'BDSM', but, once again, not a single one that related to DD. Google do not 'change' their pages every week- they UPDATE them adding new inks and removing the defunct ones, so, unless you expect us to believe that they have conveniently removed all the references to DD in the past week or so, then it doesn't really wash. In any case, as I said before, all that your keywords prove is that you would have to be actively looking for that type of site in order to find it. No problem - I'll let it go anytime - just as soon as you do.

    "What do you ladies say about sending a donaton to Hillary for President. I am voting for her(get the message/suggestion)."

    Nope - don't get the thing about Hillary at all - maybe you'd like to explain it to me. Please feel free to say goodbye anytime, but be warned that goodbye is a two way thing and you have to leave the subject alone also. "Goodbye" isn't a personal opportunity for you to get in another couple of sneaky attacks on anyone who doesn't agree with everything you say.

    "What ever I respond to you are ready to poke holes into"

    As you are with everything anyone else says. In fact you have twice used those words to attack other people's posts. Take out the insults and frequent hissy fits and you have something called two sided 'debate'.


    "There is power in numbers my 8 year old knows that. I would not give this site to any one to jump on the band wagon. I can fight my own battles"

    Marjorie, have you not yet got the message that we would LOVE for you to support what you claim are the views of the masses by involving people who hold the same views as you? Ladies, would any of you object if Marjorie gave the url of this blog, which after all is ALREADY public to her fellow anti DD campaigners? I suspect that the only reason that you do not is because these people do not exist. Nobody asked you to stand alone in this discussion and it doesn't improve your credibility in any way that you have done so.

    "It is the same respect I showed to the ladies on the site I was on. I could have ended this crap a month ago told you the site my postings are all still on the site. I did not do that out of respect for the people on that site."

    This one I will take with a pinch of salt for the simple reason that the way you entered this discussion invalidates the whole claim. The very first post that you made and several others that have ensued since then were a breach of the trust, confidentiality and respect of the people whom you had falsely pretended to befriend, so why should anyone believe anything that you said from that point on?

    "I will never live in your world nor will you live in mine."

    See - there's the thing - our DD friends don't want you to live in their world, but they also don't see why you think you have the right to control and destroy it.

    "So let it go I am a responsive person and you keep pushing my buttons by twisting everything I say to attack me"

    Again I say, if you will stop making direct attacks on anyone and everyone who disagrees with your wild theories and claims, maybe they will stop defending themselves and their way of life from your onslaughts. You started this and you have perpetuated the whiole thing equally as much as anyone else.

    "Another inacurate statement is that these sites are not about money, most sites are in it for money if they do not sell something the sites they send you to do pay them for refering. Do you honestly think they do this for free? You ladies need to start reading the business news more to see how the world works"

    And I suggest that you take another look at all those sites which you claim are profit making concerns. In fact they are all blogs and forums which are subject to platform rules that they cannot be utilised for the purpose of making money. You may be interested in finding ways in which to extract money from private discussion groups, but I can assure you that not everyone goes onto the internet with the same intention. For example - do you suppose that the owner of this blog is going to make money out of his posts here? Get over it - it isn't happening except in your very small mind.

    "I know it was a submissive women site I came on first, but why does that matter"

    It matters because one mainstay of your argument against free discussion is that poor vunerable fools can 'stumble' onto the DD sites that you say are 'promoted' on the internet 'by accident' and all you have proved so far is that you have to jump through all kinds of hoops just to find such a site.

    Caro








    — Caro · 2006-05-28 04:46 · #

  74. Gay organizations that do not use alternative lifestyles to describe being gay. Very interesting are they organizatioons of gay people made to feel EVIL AND BAD by bible beaters like you who have instilled this in them. With your propaganda and word twisting ways.

    — Margot · 2006-05-28 06:53 · #

  75. One LAST thing I would like to clear up. I have not been on one of those sites in months(may God strike me dead). The reason is it was only upsetting me I would read things then get upset. That is why I originally posted on this site I needed a place to vent how I felt. I was not about to write a letter to a magazine or news paper so I posted on a place I thought was an anti DD site. I do not get excited hearing how some woman had to stand tn the corner becasue she burnt dinner, I want to throw up. To tell you the truth after reading some of the post it makes me not like men (it shows how controling they can be). I think I have adressed all of your attacks so lets say good-bye. Stop posting attacks about my intentions, character or attacking my beliefs. I have given up artacking yours. I will stop responding you can move on to a better cause (Life will be good).

    — Margot · 2006-05-28 16:25 · #

  76. I just reread your posting about some sites receiving money and some being free. The free sites are paid by other sites. You know the links sometimes even pop ups. This is how the free sites make money to stay in business and make a profit. If you go to a site then vistt a link that is on the site you are visiting the site you made your visit from gets paid by the site you visited. A site also receives money for allowing another site to be referred by the site you are on. The more visitors a site has the more the other site has to pay to be referred by the original site. it is about clicks and money. A site can demand a certain amount of money by how many visitors they have. Now I know you will find some inaccuracy in my statement except I am 100% accurate in this statement. It is an economic isssue economics is a social study, money has a way of dictating peoples lives. You need it to eat, maintain shelter and other things. So how you would ever think that these sites do it out of the goodness of there hearts is naive. The other thing is some of those clicks from what I saw look like they have pornographic things on them. So this is not all as pure as you ladies make it out to be. If you are so moralistic you would not visit any sites that refer to other sites of pornographic nature.

    — Margot · 2006-05-29 07:08 · #

  77. Caro,
    Grow up you seem to be the one having trouble letting this entire thing go. I have not visited or will not ever visit a DD site again. The entire thing is not my bag. Eventually the internet will have FCC or some type of restrictions put on it. I will not be the person to do it(I am just a single person with an opinion)so why does my opinion matter to you so much? Are you that intimidated because I vote(what is your deal)? I have said it I will not change my view's and you will not change yours We live in different worlds. So why do you insist upon rersponding with attacks. This site might be one of the 10-15% that are not sponsored for money. This is not the norm. Lets say Au Voir let it go.

    — Margot · 2006-05-29 10:25 · #

  78. Majorie,

    "I just reread your posting about some sites receiving money and some being free. The free sites are paid by other sites. You know the links sometimes even pop ups. This is how the free sites make money to stay in business and make a profit."

    My goodness darling, you don't know very much about internet groups and free sites at all do you? I believe that you can get the kind services that you describe, but only if you take out a paid 'premium' service and don't just use the free versions of these places. Get over it -most DD sites, including Taken-in-Hand are just meeting places for groups of friends to discuss their mutual interests and/or lifestyles and have nothing at all to do with making money. You know - the same as if you pick up a phone, go out for a coffee, or write a letter to a friend? These places are not 'businesses' and I'm sad for you that you don't know the difference between a profit making concern and a chat between friends. Once again this is either the product of your imagination or yet another thing that you haven't bothered to research properly but have no qualms about presenting as 'fact'. I think perhaps you should warn your friends, assuming that you actually have any, that you view any conversation that you have with them in the light of a way of generating money for yourself.

    "If you go to a site then vistt a link that is on the site you are visiting the site you made your visit from gets paid by the site you visited. A site also receives money for allowing another site to be referred by the site you are on. The more visitors a site has the more the other site has to pay to be referred by the original site. it is about clicks and money. A site can demand a certain amount of money by how many visitors they have. Now I know you will find some inaccuracy in my statement except I am 100% accurate in this statement. It is an economic isssue economics is a social study, money has a way of dictating peoples lives. You need it to eat, maintain shelter and other things. So how you would ever think that these sites do it out of the goodness of there hearts is naive. The other thing is some of those clicks from what I saw look like they have pornographic things on them. So this is not all as pure as you ladies make it out to be. If you are so moralistic you would not visit any sites that refer to other sites of pornographic nature."

    Well we've already dealt with most of the arrant nonsense you have written above, so I won't bother to repeat the facts, but I would like you to consider the fact that, unlike you, most people who visit the internet actually have real lives, families and responsible jobs and don't need or want to make a fast buck out of their leisure activities.

    Oh and nobody here has taken the 'moral' or 'pure'stance except you, and your 'morality' was flawed from the start by your continued fabrications, imaginings and dishonesty. Similary, none of us are 'bible beaters' although I suspect from some of the things that you have said that you secretly are

    I'm not in the least surprised to see that you have persuaded yourself that you are '100% right' about this, because, to date it is clear that you believe you are NEVER wrong and know more about other people, their motivations, lives and activities than they do themselves. If you believe that is a virtue then it says an awful lot about who you are as a person.

    Majorie - I know that you said in an earlier post that you were dyslexic - is this why you cannot understand the definitions given in a dictionary for particular words? For probably the tenth time, a 'lifestyle' denotes only the WAY that you CHOOSE to live and has nothing at all to do with who you are as a person or how you were born. The reason why some gay people object to the words 'alternative lifestyle' is because it trivialises their state of being as if it is something that they have CHOSEN and not WHO they are. Again, although I don't know what is so hard to understand especially in the light of your experience with your brother in law. You can live a heterosexual lifetyle as he did for many years with your sister and yet still be gay; or you can be gay and live openly this way
    as you brother-in-law elected to do after his children left home. There is nothing bad about an 'alternative lifestyle' but it just isn't what you think it is.

    "Stop posting attacks about my intentions, character or attacking my beliefs. I have given up artacking yours."

    I'm afraid this is more self delusion because you have consistently been the one to attack and there is no evidence that you have ceased to do this yet. If it were a simple matter of your declaring your disapproval of DD and giving your reasons why, then that would be one thing, but, in fact you have attacked the very core of the way a whole group of adults have chosen to live and suggested that those choices should be removed from them. On each and every occasion that anyone has responded to this challenge, no matter how polite and pleasant they have been, you have claimed that they are 'attacking' you simply because they do not agree with your every word. When you have found yourself unable to 'win' the debate by sinply making judgements, you have resorted to an ugly mixture of name calling, inaccurate assumptions, fabrications and psuedo pyschological theories all of which appear to be directed at convincing yourself of your own infallibility. If you really want the 'discussion' to end, then do not respomd to this comment and I will not post again. However, if you keep adding one last dig (or three), then I will continue to respond to the challenge.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2006-05-29 11:21 · #

  79. GOOD-BYE,AU VOIOR,FARWELL amd have a nice life.
    Margot

    — Margot · 2006-05-29 20:09 · #

  80. Hhmmm...just HOW many times is it now that Marjorie has posted "one LAST" comment, "ended the discussion for good" and said "goodbye, auvioir,farewell" ????

    I suspect we'll get at LEAST one more "final" comment from her, folks, it's patently obvious her narcassism extends to the fact the she simply must have the last word.


    — Adult Woman · 2006-05-30 01:27 · #

  81. Suits me. Goodbye to you also.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2006-05-30 01:53 · #

  82. To everyone who has been reading this back and forth. I want to clarify most sites even the free ones that send you to another site receive money. That does not mean they say visit this next site it is other links which they make available to people. Free sites that you access from other advertisor sponsored sites also have a monetary purpose. That is how they are able to survive(make a living). I have spent most of my career in advertisement related jobs,so on this topic I am correct. This particular site is not because it has no links it is simply someone who is commited to running this site. My adversary can dispute this all she wants except she is not acccurate. Just like the television stations the internet sites like MSN, Yahoo all have sponsers that pay them to advertise. The internet has taken a major piece out of the print advertisment business. That is why revenue at major newspapers and magazines are down for the last few years. The internet is taking a large part of that business. You can go research this I am sure you will find something to counter this with except on this subject I know what I am talking about.

    — Margot · 2006-05-30 03:38 · #

  83. Caro;
    You are on a mission to discredit everything I have said no matter what it is. I will admit that I don't get it I will even say that if you want to say it is a lifestyle that is your choice. I will never visit a dd site again or speak to anyone about the topic. I am willing to let go. Except I am not going to say I am wrong on every thing I have posted(particularly the issue of sponsors & money). I also will clarify a statement I made in a prior post my husband has been in advertising for his entire carrer. I have assisted in his business so I have seen every change that has been made in revenue. This is what has paid my bills for many years so I know what I am talking about. I want to know where your expertise is on this subject? Or are you so determined and angry with me that you cannot admit I am right on ONE THING.
    I reread every post this morning I see some got mixed in and not posted chronologically. I will say this again I could have said which site I was on I did not divulge the site out of respect for the people on that site. I had even written to the company that runs the site(the site has sponsors)to ask them to remove my postings. They said they had no way to remove the postings.
    So for someone to say they knew exactly wherethe postings are is strange. I think they would have read them. I could have even pasted the emails I received from the woman who sent me the pictures and shared her entire life with me. I said it from the begining I WOULD NOT OR DID NOT do that. Two things I did wrong I repeated a story I read that upset me and I lied on a discusssion board. When I look back at all of the things I have done in my life the good as well out weighed the bad. Lets say good-bye I am not out to hurt you or anyone else.

    — Margot · 2006-05-30 06:25 · #

  84. Caro,
    I personally do not care if you post till the end of time. You do not scare me or intimidate me. I am convinced what you are doing is transfering the resentment you are holding towards your domestic situation. You cannot speak or vent at your spouse so you are doing it to me. You said "we have already dealt with that" I am sure that is how your husband speaks to you when he is disciplining you. I would not allow my husband to speak to me like that nor would I speak to him like that, I don't even talk to my nanny like that. In my house we are all(kids,dog & nanny) equals so we say what we feel. We know how to speak to each other with respect we learned from love and good breeding. If my husband hurts me or I hurt him we aknowledge what we did, we are adults so we apologize and move on. I was not put on this earth to obey him he does not have to obey me.
    Respect is something you should have naturally for a person you marry or any other human. I have also thought about how you ladies have responded to me over the last month. I was judgemental if this is something you want and need go for it. I will even apologize for being a bitch. I thought about the site I went onto I was there for a woman who lost her mother when she had no friends to support her. I also gave some advice so I did not hurt anyone. I personally don't get this need to submit that is not for me to judge. I am still taking my stand that promoting this to others is wrong.
    Your thinking process is so rigid that when I attempted to lighten it up last week you accused me of wanting to use these sites to generate money. I am not trying to brag(know you will say that)I am very comfortable. I have no need to make $ off of this. Why can you not just accept the fact that I voiced my opinion about DD and it was not what you wanted to hear. You did get the Hillary comment you are not the kind of women that would vote for Hillary. The women I admire most are Elanor Roosevelt, Barbra Walters, Gloria Steinem,Mother Theresa, Hillary Rodham Clinton and Candice Bergman(that is just a few). We see life from a different place. So I would love to end this back and forth except I will not be postured and I am not intimidated by you. I am one woman without an agenda to harm you or the other women who practice DD. As an adult you should be willing to walk away and agree that we will never agree. I am not visiting one of your spots on the internet again. The ball is in your court you want to let it go just do it with out threatning to have to have the last word in a bullying fashion. The way I see it no one won or lost we just do not agree.
    Your choice

    — Margot · 2006-05-30 20:35 · #

  85. Did I call it, or what?!

    I guess "The Dictionary According to Margot" defines "final" as "whatever Margot must do to get the last word".

    It's official, I feel sorry for her now.

    — Adult Woman · 2006-05-31 14:06 · #

  86. Did I call it, or what?!
    My who is competitive and always must be right?

    — margot · 2006-05-31 16:26 · #

  87. I spoke to my husband tonight about this back and forth. He could not believe how anyone could think this is for free, he went to Taken in Hand not only do they have links to other sites like Yahoo(which pays for each click from any other site). They also refer books for you to buy and refer other site that sell products along with all other kind of money making things.
    Caro said "Taken in Hand is just a meeting place for people to discuss there mutual interest/and or DD life style and have nothing to do with money. Then said I did not know the difference between a profit making concern and a chat between friends". Then infered that this a product of my imagination or I did not do my research again. I have spent my entire life researching things I like to research things. Well you are WRONG do your research. The only strength you ladies have shown is in numbers not in accurate information. You did not need to respond so with such a nasty post Adult woman. I actually tried to end this on a civil note. Balls is in your court I said it before except I will not concede to false accusations or attacks. Eventually Seebach will probably stop posting sooner then later for me.

    — Margot · 2006-05-31 21:54 · #

  88. One last thing about sites making money. Even if you go from Taken in Hand to a free Yahoo group,you may never spend a dime. Your clicking onto a Yahoo site means Yahoo charges more to the advertisers because they have more overall visitors. PLEASE RESEARCH THIS before you assume everything that is free as no purpose except to provide a place of comfort.

    — Margot · 2006-05-31 22:14 · #

  89. FYI-MSN,Yahoo and many other sites have stock holders(they are business concerns) they are obligated to make money for. So even if they offer free chat rooms and discussion groups they are dependent on advertisements. They offer these services so they can aquire visitors. That is the way a capitalistic society works we live in a capitalistic society not a communistic society.

    — Margot · 2006-06-01 06:00 · #

  90. Agreed Adult Woman and, since I only said I would stop posting when Marjorie did, here goes:-

    Dear Marjorie,

    I'll try once more to explain the difference between your perceptions of what has happened here and how the same occurances appear to other people.

    To begin with, you say that you first visited a number of DD forums with the intention of researching a paper on female sexual behaviour in the context of internet relationships. Again you do not tell us the end purpose of this paper and it clear from your later misuse of terms like 'Electra Complex and your inability to understand certain basic concepts, that you have no knowledge of pyschology or the precepts of human behavior. Later in the discussion, you tell us that your career was, or is, in advertising, and that this is where you gained your knowledge of how money is made on the internet. If this is so, it is difficult to see why you would be researching such a paper in the first place. You don't tell us how you first heard of the term 'DD', but you later imply that it was as a result of a Google search using key words that do not, in fact, trigger any responses connected with DD. You say that your objection to these groups is that they 'publicly 'promote' DD and might therefore be a danger to vunerable women, but you don't provide any evidence to back up your claim that it is easy to 'stumble' on such a place without specifically searching for it. Further to this, you then tell us how you had to fabricate a story in order to gain entry, read and particpate in some of these forums, which in itself directly contradicts your own claim that they are open to public reading.

    Having explained how you infiltrated these private forums in the first place, you then describe how you compounded your original dishonesty by posting false biographical details and taking part in discussions in the guise of someone else. Finally you tell us that you lied to several women in private messenger conversations, gained their trust and friendship so that they told you intimate and personal details of their relationships and their families then dropped both them and the forums like a sack of hot coals when it suited you to do so. Since you were never a real friend in the first place, your self justification that you hung around to provide support for one of these women doesn't really hold much moral water. As for your unsupported claim that you were 'attacked' by the women that you tricked in this way, and by people on the forums, I take this with with a pinch of salt, based on the fact that, during the debate here, you have attributed one or more of the words, 'attack', 'intimidation', 'bullying', 'judgemental' and various other more crude expletives to virtually each and every polite and reasoned expression of disagreement that anyone else has made. It seems that your idea of a discussion is to state your 'opinion', be it based on your personal version of fact, pure assumption, or a dubious mixture of both, and then to cry 'attack' every time anyone tries to put the opposing view or even to defend themselves from your misapprehensions. while we are on the subject, let's not forget that, while you may not have used names or disclosed which group from whence they came, you also recounted something that was the subject of a private discussion in a private environment on an open public blog. Something which seems to me to be in direct conflict with your much repeated argument that discussions like this should be kept away from the public domain!

    To get back to the point, you next went into a new phase in which you opened with an attempt to compare a repressive and muderous regime (Hitler's Nazi Germany) with what goes on by mutual consent in a private and personal individual relationship between two fully competent adults. The principle of DD, you said, was in conflict with the fight for franchise, free speech and equality that women have undertaken at great cost and opposition during the last century. Your solution? To take away the freedom of speech and choice from one section of society because you don't agree with them. Can you REALLY not see the irony and serious potential danger in that?

    When we called you on that, you moved into amateur pyschologist mode and began to create entire case/life histories, motivations and reasons from single words taken out of context from other people's posts and then to use these as a weapon to beat the posters with - one example of this would be, "bible beaters", where there is not even evidence that all the posters are Christian. Next along the line was your version of, 'regression theory', which, incidentally is distrusted by most pyschologists today, in which you suggested that adults must be involved in DD because of some childhood traumatic experience. Your latest tactic is to try to convince us - or is it yourself? - that we wouldn't be disgreeing with you if we (DDers and non DDers alike) if we weren't oppressed by domineering husbands! One remark in the latest round of pseudo-analysis that is very telling is the one about how your theories 'prove' that men are 'controlling'. I can only assume from this that you have had bad experiences with men in your adult life and that these have affected your perception of other people as a whole.

    In conclusion, although you may tell yourself that it isn't so as many times as you like, this debate has NOTHING to do with your opinion of DD and whether you have the right to express it, and everything to to do with much wider reaching and distubing issues that originate with your conduct and narrow perception of life.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2006-06-01 06:04 · #

  91. Marjorie,

    Although there is probably little point in doing so, I 'll start by saying that, as with the question of a 'moral stand', the only 'angry' person in this discussion is you. Similarly, if you bothered to research the subject matter in your posts and to keep an open mind for the truth, then I wouldn't feel the need to counter your the inaccuracies that you routinely present as 'fact'. If you chose to construe this as a form of attack against you then there isn't much I can do about it. Secondly, you may think whatever you wish about how my husband speaks to me and I speak to him and you may continue with your rather unsubtle attempts to get me to admit that I am what you call a 'DDer' but I suggest that you look to your own rudeness, bad language, immaturity and general disrespect to other people in this discussion before you start telling other people how to behave.

    Since you have chosen to resurrect some old subjects and to introduce some new ones, I'll address the things I didn't deal with in my previous post.

    First, it seems from your posts and the way that you keep harking on certain aspects, that you have got the message that people don't entirely trust some of your claims about your activities on DD groups and websites. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'll try to explain once again why I feel that way. To begin with, you keep repeating that I/we cannot be aware of which DD group out of hundreds you read about the woman and the conveyor belt and the same woman and her daughter's abusive relationship. I will say again that the reason is that the woman who wrote these things told me HERSELF in live chat that she posted this in one place only. It therefore follows that we both saw it in the same group. Having established that fact, it isn't wasn't difficult to go back to the thread and examine the responses to her posts and to discover that the posts by other women saying that it was okay, the cautionary posts that you claimed to have made, and the 'attacks' that you said you received in reponse to them are nowhere to be found on that site. Secondly, although no-one has asked youto disclose on which site you made the announcement that you were ceasing to practise DD, you keep throwing that up as a smokesscreen whenever you don't want to give anyone a straight answer. Thirdly, if someone discredits or disproves something you say, you do one of two things. One is to lose your temper and throw personal insults and accusations, and the other to is to backtrack and try to change your earlier story or bring up something new. Now, all of this may be unintentional and you may not fully realise the effect that it has, but overall the result is that all that ducking and diving makes you come over as less than honest.

    A couple of other points, beginning with the Hillary Clinton question. Although I do know who she is and I do know who she was/is married to, I have no idea at all about her politics because I am not an American. By the same token, you have no idea for whom I would vote and on what grounds, because you clearly have no capacity for understanding or empathy with any person who has an open mind. What I will say about my own politics is that, if the only candidate was a person like you, who wanted to curtail the personal freedoms of the individual in a way that is in direct conflict with the whole basis of your written constitution, then I would consider it my duty to my fellow citizens not to vote at all. From your conduct here, I would describe you less as, "one woman without an agenda to harm you or the other women who practice DD" (not going to fall for that "you and other women who practice DD" one either, btw), than "one woman, WITH an agenda, but (fortunately for the world) no power or knowledge to carry it out".

    Secondly, I know nothing at all about commercial ventures on the internet since my only foray into that area has been confined to buying a pillow on e bay. I do however know about groups and free sites, because my hobby is PSP and graphics and I own' or co-manage several groups, blogs and free websites on a number of platforms including Yahoo and MSN. For this reason I am certain that one of the conditions of use on these places is that they must not be used for commercial ventures of any kind. I am sure that, if you ask your husband, he will explain the difference between a free and a commercial website. I am aware that the advertisements that come with free sites help the providers to pay for the free facilities, but the website ' owners' get no commercial gain from this at all and no say whatsoever in who the advertisers are. Incidentally, some of my sites have free no strings 'click counters' but these were added by me from free web tool sites for personal use and do not have a commercial purpose. My suggestion that your purpose when on the internet was to make money was a counter what you quite wrongly said about everyone else and I find it quite staggering that you see that you see your prouncement as "lightening things up".

    Just one last thing - do you recall that I pointed out in an earlier post that you have a propensity to use a word or a phrase and then later in the conversation turn it around and pretend that soimeone else used it on you? Well let me give you the latest in a long line of examples:-

    Marjorie on May 16th: "You are so draining and yes I usually do get the last word"

    Marjorie on May 30th after having made your" final post" around 9 times and making no less than three posts in succession after I agreed to say 'goodbye':- " The ball is in your court you want to let it go just do it with out threatning to have to have the last word in a bullying fashion"

    Once again I entreat you to look through the posts and look for the one on which I said (in a 'bullying fashion' or otherwise), that I had to have the " last word".

    Caro

    — Caro · 2006-06-01 11:21 · #

  92. "I had even written to the company that runs the site(the site has sponsors)to ask them to remove my postings. They said they had no way to remove the postings."


    Marjorie,

    If you want to get your posts removed from a group, you have to go the moderator or managers of the group concerned. Group providers like MSN and Yahoo have no control over individual material that is posted in forums except in the sense that groups can be deleted by them at without notice and at will. Group administrators, managers and moderstors can, on the other hand, remove any individual item they wish. For details of how the free groups work, simply go to the various platforms and read their 'Terms of Service' and rules which will tell you all you need to know about how the platforms finance the free service (THEY get revenue from advertising, but group managers/owners DO NOT) and the technical workings of the groups themselves.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2006-06-01 14:35 · #

  93. Adult Woman:
    Why would you feel sorry for me? I do what I want and say what I want when I want. Is that a issue you have problems coming to terms with?
    I gave my whole hearted honest thoughts on this subject. You are the ladies who cannotinterpret facts even when they are accurately delivered to them. I have not ran to other women to stand by me I have read every attack, answered it soley. So why would you feel sorry for me? Because I am not rolling over never happen. I know what I read, I have a right to my opinion. The other thing that is so ludicrous is the remark about the 80's supervison. In the 80's we needed warrants to tap phones or get information on a person. This present administration does not feel that is a right. So how have we alloweed more freedom in this country? EXPLAIN!


    — margot · 2006-06-01 20:17 · #

  94. Caro:
    1. Have you ever heard of changing a persons career. When one does not like what a person is doing after a certain point in their life they go back to school for a degree in something else. I wanted to get degree in a psychology related field. I was applying to a program for women returning to school(through a program designed for women). One of the requirements was a paper on a topic dealing with a pshychological theory.
    2. I was on a site that was an open discussion board. I did not have to join the site I was on. I did have to join the MSN board, except it was not so hard it was an email adress and 2 sentences. I did not post on MSN, I read the postings. I asked to be removed from the site I was on I emailed the company that ran the site since the site had no Web master I needed to contact the COMPANY that ran the site.
    3. In my inital posting the third paragraph was to brief. The reason being I did not clearly define the fact it was another place I posted asking the woman how she would feel if her daughter practiced DD. I NEVER SAID I SPOKE OR ASKED THE WOMAN ON MSN ABOUT HER DAUGHTER. It was a contrast one woman on one site is concerned about her daughter being affected by DD the other woman said it would not bother her. A matter of fact I said "I asked one" I never said the woman with the conveyer belt. You and your cohorts twisting what you read to make it the same person.
    4. Taken in Hand was the site we had the disagreement about. You said it was a free place to make friends and chat. When I said it was in it for $ you countered me with I was wrong. You must have done your homework(good girl).Now you tell me you are a host or whatever. Well you are working for nothing(volunteer for corporations/indirectly). It goes by clicks to a provider. In the USA the Neilson ratings began years ago by measuring how many viewers each show was watched,they used meters to do this. This same theory applies to the internet certain computers have meters on them to monitor which sites they visit. Neilson has become the global standard for internet audience measurement. They use a panel-based and sitecentric internet audience measurement services, online advertising intelligence, which gets the formula for users lifestyles and demographic data. This information is used by advertisors to make decisions about what sites & products to advertise on.
    5. People you meet on the internet discussion groups are not meant to be friends. That was the inital theme of my paper. Do women become attached to each other,loose contact with people in their day to day life, if a sexual component is added do they bond. How I found DD well women don't like talking about kinky sexual habits. It is much easier to speak to an anonymous person who has the same desires. So I started looking for kinky topics spanking is kinky so is submissive. You have said I am hiding something I am sure subconsciously I have a component that would like to be more feminine or submissive(we all have components)many women such as myself have been raised to not explore those areas and never will. Our personality's, social enviorment and other variables will never allow these sort of components to explore.
    6. I am sorry if you are so attached to the people in your groups that you feel that you or they should depend on these friendships. That within itself should be adressed. The internet has taken people away from having to have to deal with real life. George Orwell was not so off the mark. I said I revisited the site I was on the ladie I was concerned about was really getting over the top with DD it was scary.
    7. I have personalized this so much because every word has been twisted and manipulated because you don't like what I said or did.
    8. I am by no means a man hater.
    9.This is not about me or you it is about promoting domestic abuse to other women in the form of do this and things will be right. You push your beliefs onto other women then accuse me of denying you freedom of speech.
    10. I do not have to ask my husband I have a brain I know how to use.
    I have a job to go to I will reply to the rest of your ATTACKS later.

    — Margot · 2006-06-02 07:24 · #

  95. Oh my, Marjorie finally said something that was indisputably true and has finally given us the ONE thing she has said that can be "interpreted as fact":

    "I do what I want and say what I want when I want"

    Unfortunately for her, (and this is why I'm beginning to feel truly sorry for her) when Marjorie does and says what she wants, she does and says it with no regard for honesty, civility or just plain old human kindness.

    Goodness, she does it without even keeping her stories straight even though she has them in black and white right here for reference and to help her avoid contradicting herself...

    ...but then again I hear that's how pathelogical liars and people with delusions of grandure operate, they actually believe their own lies and haven't the mental or emotional faculties to recognize that they are, in reality, fabricating "facts" in order to maintain their own psychosis.

    She has made it so painfully obvious that she "hears" nothing anyone else has to say unless it supports her cockeyed view.

    She attacked the fundamental right of adult women to make their own decision about how they choose to live.

    She attacked the fundamental right of ANY adult to congregate and exchange ideas with like-minded people.

    What makes that even more atrocious is the group she chose to attack is a group that is willing and happy to remain privately amongst themselves and then tried to present "facts" -regardless of the MANY MANY points made to debunk her "facts"- to dispute the simple reality that the group in debate makes NO ATTEMPT WHATSOEVER to publically impose their personal choices on the masses.

    My goodness, she's even suggested (more than once) that someone else (perhaps someone with her impeccable moral standards for truth and ethics?) dictate whether or not any choice made by an adult is valid enough to warrant the exercise of that fundamental right.

    She then launched an emotionally driven and self-indulgent attack on anyone who SIMPLY POINTED OUT that she (or anyone else for that matter) has no right nor any invitation to even suggest that those rights should be selectively endowed based solely on whether or not SHE agrees with how those rights are exercised.

    People much wiser than she wrote the Constitution to declare those rights be afforded to every adult person.

    People much more noble and honorable than she have protected them for more than 230 years.

    This has NEVER been a "debate" or discussion about DD...despite Marjorie's countless failed attempts to make it one.

    If she had simply respectfully disagreed with the choice and/or questioned it with a genuine motivation to understand it, this entire thread would have turned out differently.

    But because she choose to first attack fundamental rights for adults in this and other countries and then sunk to the level of personally attacking posters who were intelligent enough to see through her poorly masked facade of "honorable intentions" by pointing out that whether or not she agrees with or understands it the simple FACT remains:

    What transpires between two consenting adults in the privacy of their own home is not only none of her business BUT a fundamental freedom that is protected.

    WE didn't go "public".

    WE didn't engage anyone else in a battle to "prove" our choices are valid and viable.

    WE extended no invitation for her to infiltrate and "expose" our private community....SHE sought us out and jumped through more than a few hoops to even gain access to our community and for what?

    I suspect her own fascination with "just" adult spanking was the catalyst but she has neither the emotional maturity nor the ability to explore and understand her own personality and predispositions to admit that....even to herself.

    And I feel wholley comfortable in making that statement because if there is ONE completely INDISPUTABLE FACT in this entire thread it's this:

    "Domestic Discipline" is NOT a term that is either commonly used or widely recognized by the public at large.
    SO UNLESS YOU ARE SPECIFICALLY INTERESTED IN WHAT IT ADVOCATES AND THEN ARE WILLING TO PURPOSEFULLY WEED THROUGH THE EXHAUSTIVE AND CONVOLUTED SUB-CATEGORIES OF AN INTERNET SEARCH BASED ON A COMMON KEYWORD (like "spanking")YOU SIMPLY CANNOT FIND THE PRIVATE INTERNET COMMUNITIES SHE CLAIMS TO HAVE 'STUMBLED UPON'.

    Which is what she CLAIMS to have based her entire self-promoting and ego-driven argument on in the first place; her "fear" that poor, defenseless and emotionally unstable women will "stumble onto" one of our message boards and embrace this lifestyle that SHE finds deplorable.

    I realize that there are two ways Marjorie will finally be able to truly have her "final" word:

    (A) When she can take a deep breath, re-read HER original post and the initial responses to it and simply RECOGNIZE that she allowed her PERSONAL indignation for DD to justify her ridiculous and frightening conclusion that personal freedom of choice be restricted and/or eliminated across the board. And, like it or not, anyone who advocates that is just plain wrong.

    OR

    (B) When she can admit (if only to herself) that her OWN interest in being spanked (and her utter, albeit misguided, shame in that self knowledge) was the driving force behind the direction this entire thread eventually took.

    I hold out NO hope she will opt for either, though. She has painted herself firmly into a corner now and (like a trapped cat) will claw and scratch to death rather than concede SHE ALONE is responsible for her current predicament by refusing to simply admit that she was wrong to suggest personal freedom of choice is a fundamental right that is up for debate.

    Why do I feel sorry for her? Mostly because she really does seem to believe she is important enough and revered enough to actually present an argument AGAINST Constitutional Rights and Freedoms and be supported....and that is not only delusional, it's dangerous.






    — Adult Woman · 2006-06-02 08:25 · #

  96. Csro:
    10. Psychology is not a defined science. It has many different theories it is up to the person to accept or disregard them. Some people still feel Fraud 150 years later was on the mark. so to say that Regression theory is not accepted is inacurate(just like free sites).
    11. It would take an idiot not to tell you and your cohorts are not religous. The words you use are not ones used by people who are not deeply religous.
    12. May 12 you wrote I am glued to my lap top to see what kind of response I would give. So who has been pushing this to continue.
    13. You lied about not knowing each other then I find out you do. So it is the same deception that I did. If that is not the pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is. What is up with the religous right you always say we are without sin you are a SINNER.
    14. Domestic Abuse is everyones business it cost tax dollars to treat these women. Many of them are on some sort of public assistance. so the cost are either in medical cost, psychological counseling, shelter and the cost run on. I made a donation last week to a shelter. So anyone who is promoting to vunerable women should be stopped. I don't want to pay for it.
    15. You are in a competition with me and it is bothering the hell out of you that I am smart along with being persistant. I am very competitive so I don't scream uncle.
    16. You attacked my professional life being a boss means you have to deal with disagreements, firing people and being supportive. In many situations you need to use psychological skills.
    margot

    — Margot · 2006-06-02 09:13 · #

  97. "I spoke to my husband tonight about this back and forth. He could not believe how anyone could think this is for free, he went to Taken in Hand not only do they have links to other sites like Yahoo(which pays for each click from any other site). They also refer books for you to buy and refer other site that sell products along with all other kind of money making things.
    Caro said "Taken in Hand is just a meeting place for people to discuss there mutual interest/and or DD life style and have nothing to do with money. Then said I did not know the difference between a profit making concern and a chat between friends". Then infered that this a product of my imagination or I did not do my research again. I have spent my entire life researching things I like to research things. Well you are WRONG do your research. The only strength you ladies have shown is in numbers not in accurate information. You did not need to respond so with such a nasty post Adult woman. I actually tried to end this on a civil note. Balls is in your court I said it before except I will not concede to false accusations or attacks. Eventually Seebach will probably stop posting sooner then later for me."


    Marjorie,

    I think that the issue here is once again your problem with selective memory and non contextual reading. The fact that the various platforms like Yahoo and MSN finance their free website and forum services via a system of commercial advertising has never been the subject of dispute. However, what the rest of us have been discussing while you have been trying to prove what we already know, is your claim that the MANAGERS/MODERATORS of free forums and websites automatically get income from advertising services or referrals to commercial sites. I run several of these sites myself and on each of them, I have added links to a couple of commercial or semi commercial sites but I neither get money from this, nor do I want to get money from it. The sites/groups are on a par with something like a real life literary or sewing circle where people meet to share views and swop ideas. Some people are clever enough to have internet based commercial businesses, but, for myself, if I want to make money then I have to go out to work, and my computer activities are just a form of leisure time enjoyment. Now go back and ask your husband the REAL question and he might be able to help you to understand the issue.

    I agree with your sentiment that you won't concede to 'false accusations', but I don't see what that has to do with the conversation here. All anyone else has done is to pick up on on words and phrases that you yourself have used, except that most of us aren't so paranoid that we don't know the difference between an 'attack' and a difference of opinion. Similarly, we don't have your need to 'defend' ourselves through the medium of agressive language and insults.

    As to Seebach calling a halt to the conversation, it seems clear up to this point that, probably because he has the courage of his own convictions, he doesn't feel intimidated by an alternative view. Since he has allowed comments of all kinds to go through, including one of yours that came complete with a classic expletive, I don't see why he would have an interest in stopping it now.

    I do agree that you tried to end the conversation (only Frank Sinatra made as many 'final' appearances as you), but there was nothing remotely 'civil'in the way you tried to do it. I don't recall saying a single rude word about you or your family and I haven't made wildly inaccurate statements about your home life. In fact, if you are one tenth as rude, unpleasant and disrespectful toward other people as you have been here, your husband and family must be very patient and goodnatured individuals. What a pity that you did not afford me and my family the same common courtesy. If that was an example of 'good breeding' and 'respect that comes naturally' then I think I'll try to continue to manage without either. I guess that putting people down, making assumptions about them and calling them names is just pleasant interaction Majorie style and isn't the same as the nasty bullying attacks and intimidation and false accusations that you are suffering from everyone else. I'm sorry that more than one person has chosen to call you independently on the same flaws in your logic and holes in your stories and I look forward to reading posts in support of your personal version of events. Unlike you, I don't feel intimidated by constructive and polite criticism and it doesn't make me feel angry or agressive. Given a logical and well supported argument, and I haven't seen either from you as yet, then I am even prepared to admit that I am sometimes wrong, but, nevertheless, I have no intention of standing by while you spout rude and dangerous nonsense about other people's lives and beliefs. You wanted to say "Au Revoir" in any earlier post (or three), well, since that means 'until we meet again' and I'm sure that you are composing your latest onslaught at this very moment, then 'Au Revoir' until the next time.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2006-06-02 10:48 · #

  98. I'm compelled to point out that the reference to "80's supervision" Marjorie DEMANDED an explaination for in her most recent rant is simply one more example of her making Caro's point: she will try to throw up a smokescreen whenever she can't give a straight answer to a straight question or point.

    This time the smokescreen was the term "8o's supervision" which she misquoted (big shock there) and threw out there (totally out of context by the way, another shocker) to mask the fact that she was simply being held accountable to HER OWN WORDS. (Her "own words" being her claim to have made her "LAST" and "FINAL" comments in this thread).

    For the record: Caro actually used the term "1984-style surpervision" and the context of her original comment was to use it as a methaphorical example of the kind of censorship of personal freedoms Marjorie has advocated countless times throughout this thread.

    Because Marjorie implied/presented herself as an "intellect/scholar" when she claimed it was her "research" for a "paper" that originally led to her "discovery" of DD; I'm frankly shocked that she seems to possess so little general knowledge of classic literature that she didn't grasp the reference Caro made to H.G. Wells' classic novel "1984". (A fictional account of extreme censorship by the government). My goodness, that was required reading in most mainstream HIGH SCHOOL curriculums!

    And, just to clarify, Caro's reference to it was obviously tongue in cheek and was not even remotely used as an "example" of the evolution (or de-evolution) of the governments ability or proclivity to "invade" privacy laws. Although, where Marjorie came up with THAT lastest topic to obscure the discussion at hand does seem to further confirm Caro's comments about how she just CREATES new issues to avoid dealing with present ones.

    So basically, she pulled that obscure comment out of a post made roughly 15 posts back in this thread and presented it as a "personal attack" directed at her ethics and/or opinions. I assume she does that in an effort to solicite a bit of empathy. SMOKESCREEN. (She really needs to develope some new material.)

    By doing so she once again confirmed Caro's comment about how she grasps at the insignificant comment, twists it around to suit her current argument or claim of being "unjustly attacked" in order to duck, weave, deflect and distract from responding to specific points that she obviously has no way of defending or intention of explaining.

    If it wasn't so pitiful it would be hiliarious.


    — Adult Woman · 2006-06-02 12:44 · #

  99. Domestic Discipline is a term usually used when refering goverment fiscal spending. Unless a person was truly looking for a place to vent. They would not have found an ANTI DOMESTIC DISCIPLINE SITE that is what I was looking for.
    I just googled submissive women 4,530,000 sites came up. On page 2 was a Taken in Hand site link. Then I googled Domestic Discipline 24,100,000 sites came up. Unless you use a different Google then me(which is imposable)finding this is not so hard.
    I have never insulted your family just DD. Your family is much more then DD. They could be the kindest people in the world. That also goes for the other ladies. I condemned promoting DD and it getting into the wrong hands.
    The other thing is Mr. Fondly and Firmly had a problem in Australia. So I am not the only person who had a problem with this. I would like to end this more then you would except I am not allowing you to bully me into stopping.

    — Margot · 2006-06-02 13:06 · #

  100. 1. Have you ever heard of changing a persons career. When one does not like what a person is doing after a certain point in their life they go back to school for a degree in something else. I wanted to get degree in a psychology related field. I was applying to a program for women returning to school(through a program designed for women). One of the requirements was a paper on a topic dealing with a pshychological theory.

    Okay, reasonable explanation of the circumstances and one with which I have no problem.

    2. I was on a site that was an open discussion board. I did not have to join the site I was on. I did have to join the MSN board, except it was not so hard it was an email adress and 2 sentences. I did not post on MSN, I read the postings. I asked to be removed from the site I was on I emailed the company that ran the site since the site had no Web master I needed to contact the COMPANY that ran the site.

    Okay.

    3. In my inital posting the third paragraph was to brief. The reason being I did not clearly define the fact it was another place I posted asking the woman how she would feel if her daughter practiced DD. I NEVER SAID I SPOKE OR ASKED THE WOMAN ON MSN ABOUT HER DAUGHTER. It was a contrast one woman on one site is concerned about her daughter being affected by DD the other woman said it would not bother her. A matter of fact I said "I asked one" I never said the woman with the conveyer belt. You and your cohorts twisting what you read to make it the same person.

    Okay - if you say so then I have no alternative but to believe you. However, if you did a little less ducking, diving, weaving and altering the details of your stories, then you would have less of a credibility problem in the first place.

    4. Taken in Hand was the site we had the disagreement about. You said it was a free place to make friends and chat. When I said it was in it for $ you countered me with I was wrong. You must have done your homework(good girl).Now you tell me you are a host or whatever. Well you are working for nothing(volunteer for corporations/indirectly). It goes by clicks to a provider. In the USA the Neilson ratings began years ago by measuring how many viewers each show was watched,they used meters to do this. This same theory applies to the internet certain computers have meters on them to monitor which sites they visit. Neilson has become the global standard for internet audience measurement. They use a panel-based and sitecentric internet audience measurement services, online advertising intelligence, which gets the formula for users lifestyles and demographic data. This information is used by advertisors to make decisions about what sites & products to advertise on.

    Yep - that's the gist of what I said in three of my previous posts and was never in dispute - that the web providers generate income from their free sites, but that the people who run them don't do it for personal gain. However, for me it wasn't specifically anything to do with 'Taken In Hand', but was in the way you quite clearly implied that individuals only run DD groups in order to make money. I didn't do any more checking on Taken in Hand, except to look at the site verry briefly and to find that there is no evidence whatsoever that the owner is making money out of the links she has on the site. Since it is her own server, it is also completely advertisement free. However, if she is making enough to cover the cost of what is a very useful site then I say, "good luck to her".

    Caro

    — Caro · 2006-06-02 14:35 · #

  101. YADA YADA YADA

    — Margot · 2006-06-02 16:20 · #

  102. "5. People you meet on the internet discussion groups are not meant to be friends. That was the inital theme of my paper. Do women become attached to each other,loose contact with people in their day to day life, if a sexual component is added do they bond. How I found DD well women don't like talking about kinky sexual habits. It is much easier to speak to an anonymous person who has the same desires. So I started looking for kinky topics spanking is kinky so is submissive. You have said I am hiding something I am sure subconsciously I have a component that would like to be more feminine or submissive(we all have components)many women such as myself have been raised to not explore those areas and never will. Our personality's, social enviorment and other variables will never allow these sort of components to explore."

    Why do you say that, "People you meet on the internet discussion groups are not meant to be friends?" That really doesn't make any sense at all. Do you not realise that many friendships of this type develop way beyond just internet contact? Telephone calls and real life meetings are commonplace and many people form relationships that later lead to marriage. People who communicate on the internet are still people like any other and they can still be hurt in exactly the same way as your real-life best friend. Also, I've never heard that internet friendships have any bearing on real life friendships and, for myself, I have friends in both mediums with whom I swop confidences. The internet has just added another dimension to what was already a full life. I have several friends whom I have known since my schooldays and we discuss all kinds of things without embarassment so I wouldn't need to go to the internet to have such a discussion.

    Sorry, I think 'kinky' is in the eye of the beholder and I don't agree that spanking or 'submissive' necessarily fit into that frame although I do understand why you would find it difficult to explore some grey areas in your life.

    "6. I am sorry if you are so attached to the people in your groups that you feel that you or they should depend on these friendships. That within itself should be adressed. The internet has taken people away from having to have to deal with real life. George Orwell was not so off the mark. I said I revisited the site I was on the ladie I was concerned about was really getting over the top with DD it was scary."

    This I do not understand. Why is a person less 'real' if they sit at a keyboard and type words of communication than if they sit in a chair opposite you and voice the words? That's a very cynical and odd view Similarly, how does it take them away from 'real life' to have another set of friends with whom they can work things through. Do their real life friends, families, jobs and social lives just disappear in a puff of smoke because they talk to one or two people via a keyboard? How did Geoge Orwell 'have it right'? Do you want us to live in houses with cameras and listening devices in every room to burn all our books and chant twice daily about 'hate'?

    Also, whose view is it that the your acquaintance, "was really getting over the top with DD"? Was it yours, or hers? What's more to the point, was SHE scared or is she just living her live in the way that makes HER feel happy and fulfilled?

    "7. I have personalized this so much because every word has been twisted and manipulated because you don't like what I said or did."

    Now that is definitely a case of the pot calling the kettle black. You not only twist other people's words, you take single words out of their real context and from these create entire imaginery live scenarios for people you know nothing about. It might not matter if you were good at this, but the fact is that you are not.

    "8. I am by no means a man hater."

    Margot on May 28th: " To tell you the truth after reading some of the post it makes me not like men (it shows how controling they can be). "

    "9.This is not about me or you it is about promoting domestic abuse to other women in the form of do this and things will be right. You push your beliefs onto other women then accuse me of denying you freedom of speech."

    Marjorie. Please try to see this how it actually is. We have established beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is virtually impossible to find any reference to DD on the internet without having prior knowledge of this label and its meaning. None of the other search words that you have suggested lead to references to DD. It therefore follows that you cannot 'stumble' on a DD site by mistake and have to have a prior interest in the subject in order to search out information about it. This means that there is no 'promotion' of the subject on the internet as you try to suggest. Having run a search SPECIFICALLY for 'DD', you then find a large number of erotic pay sites which bear no relationship to the real principles of DD and probably only one or two sites which are the real McCoy, the rest being closed to public reading and excluded from the search engines.

    On entering the 'real' DD sites and forums, you find a variety of posts on the subject in which people describe how DD works for THEM. Great emphasis is put on the fact that DD works differently for every couple and it is made abundantly clear over and over again that it is not a 'quick fix' for all marriages and relationship problems and that for many people it wouldn't be suitable at all. Ergo, there is no 'promotion' of DD on the internet and no 'pushing of beliefs' onto other people. I suggest that the reason your one-to-one acquaintances urged you to continue with DD after you had announced that you would cease, is due to the fact that you had falsely portrayed yourself as a woman in a happy long term DD relationship and they just wanted to help somebody they thought was a friend. Had you appeared to be somebody new to the concept, I very much doubt that they would have encouraged you in something that didn't feel right.

    As to 'Domestic Abuse', my understanding of 'abuse' whether it be emotional, physical, or both, is that there has to be a perpetrator and an unwilling victim. Since DD is a private arrangement that is made between two competent adults by mutual consent, neither of the two elements that make up 'abuse' are present and it therefore doesn't qualify as 'abuse'.

    Actually when it comes down to it, you did a pretty good job of pushing YOUR beliefs onto other people and if saying that people who practise DD shouldn't be allowed to talk about it on the internet isn't denying them freedom of speech, then pray, what is?

    "10. I do not have to ask my husband I have a brain I know how to use."

    I suggested that you asked your husband because you stated that this was his job. As to the rest, in the interests of polteness and consideration, I won't comment on that.

    "I have a job to go to I will reply to the rest of your ATTACKS later."

    Please do try to be a little more objective stop imagining every legitimate expression of an opionion that differs from yours to be an 'attack'

    Caro



    — Caro · 2006-06-02 20:14 · #

  103. "10. is not a defined science. It has many different theories it is up to the person to accept or disregard them. Some people still feel Fraud 150 years later was on the mark. so to say that Regression theory is not accepted is inacurate"

    What I said that 'most psychologists' distrusted regression theory; I didn't say that it wasn't accepted per se. I didn't pluck this comment out of thin air and I do have data to support it. As you say, individual psychologists believe different things, and many don't go by Freud's theories either.

    (just like free sites). This was your misunderstanding and I have explained it in an earlier post.

    "11. It would take an idiot not to tell you and your cohorts are not religous. The words you use are not ones used by people who are not deeply religous."

    Then that would make you an " idiot", because your theories about me are wildly inaccurate as is your insinuation that the other posters on this blog are my 'cohorts'.

    "12. May 12 you wrote I am glued to my lap top to see what kind of response I would give. So who has been pushing this to continue."

    Actually I don't even own a lap top so I would have considerable trouble becoming glued to one. I did however empathise with 'Adult Woman's' remarks when she said this.

    "13. You lied about not knowing each other then I find out you do."

    Nor sure what you are talking about here. When we discussed this on a previous occasion, I told you that I recognised one poster from the DD sites (Louise) because she used the same name here as she uses elsewhere. The other posters I didn't recognise and I still don't. So please do tell me how you 'found out' that I know somebody I don't actually know.

    "So it is the same deception that I did. If that is not the pot calling the kettle black I don't know what is."

    Now I'm REALLY confused. What deception did I do that was the same as you?

    "What is up with the religous right you always say we are without sin you are a SINNER."

    This comment doesn't really make a lot of sense and I don't understand what you are trying to say, but if it is to insinuate that only religious people talk about sin and sinners, then you should be aware that you are the only poster to have used that term.

    "14. Domestic Abuse is everyones business it cost tax dollars to treat these women. Many of them are on some sort of public assistance. so the cost are either in medical cost, psychological counseling, shelter and the cost run on. I made a donation last week to a shelter. So anyone who is promoting to vunerable women should be stopped. I don't want to pay for it."

    I agree that, "Domestic Abuse is everyone's business". although it doesn't affect my 'tax dollars' because I don't live in America. On the other hand a fully consensual arrangement between two competent adults about how to live their private lives is neither 'abuse' nor anyone else's business. I won't state the obvious anomoly in your statement that you donated to something you 'don't want to pay for'

    "15. You are in a competition with me . I am very competitive"

    I suppose a 'competetion' is an improvement on your former description of an 'attack' from a 'one-sided bitch' so I have to be grateful for small mercies.

    "and it is bothering the hell out of you"

    Actually I'm finding it quite enjoyable.

    "that I am smart along with being persistant"

    The first is not proven, and the second - well yes we've noticed that you are 'persistent' (yawn).

    "so I don't scream uncle"

    True. You just keep making 'final posts' one after the other and hoping that other people will back down so that you can be 'right'.

    16. "You attacked my professional life"

    Nope - sorry, but I didn't "attack your professional life". Unless of course you mean that I endorsed your statement that you worked with your husband in advertsing. Can't see an 'attack' there though.

    "being a boss means you have to deal with disagreements, firing people and being supportive."

    I don't dispute thirty years of personal experience in this area.

    "In many situations you need to use psychological skills "

    Then maybe you ought to acquire some.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2006-06-02 21:31 · #

  104. "The other thing that is so ludicrous is the remark about the 80's supervison. In the 80's we needed warrants to tap phones or get information on a person. This present administration does not feel that is a right. So how have we alloweed more freedom in this country? EXPLAIN!"

    Marjorie,

    I saw this remark earlier but didn't try to respond to it because it was addressed to Adult Woman. It wasn't until later on that I realised that you were actually referring to MY comment about your '1984 style supervision'.

    This was nothing to do with America's administration in the 1980s but was an allusion to George Orwell's 1949 novel entitled, '1984' in which he described a totalitarian state where there was no privacy, every move was watched by hidden cameras, and every word overheard by the state. In order to maintain total control the goverbment also planted spies among the citizens to pick up on any subversion. It was from this novel that the term 'Big Brother' which they use on the TV reality show was coined, because characters in the novel were constantly reminded by signs and posters to remember that 'Big Brother is watching you'.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2006-06-02 22:14 · #

  105. "13. You lied about not knowing each other then I find out you do. So it is the same deception that I did."

    Oh hold on a minute - the penny drops! You are talking about where I posted this:-

    "To begin with, you keep repeating that I/we cannot be aware of which DD group out of hundreds you read about the woman and the conveyor belt and the same woman and her daughter's abusive relationship. I will say again that the reason is that the woman who wrote these things told me HERSELF in live chat that she posted this in one place only. It therefore follows that we both saw it in the same group"

    on June 1st, right?

    Well let me just quote from my post on April 12th (with added capitals to hightlight the relevant part)

    "From my own experience, I am 100% certain that you will be accepted as a member there even if your declared reason for joining is solely to do research. I don't know whether you are still a member there or not, but I am, and it wasn't very difficult to go back into the group, locate the discussions to which you refer, read back through them and ascertain that, as was my recollection, no poster had written anything remotely like what you claim to have posted. Similarly, there was no evidence of any kind of attack on a poster in the course of these discussions. Although, you may have written about ceasing the DD you pretended to practise and not posting on the group any more in a place I haven't read, I wasn't able to find anything about that either. Conclusion - if the posts you claim to have made weren't there - then you never wrote them and didn't get the responses you claim to have got,and it follows that you are not being honest. I don't know what is on other groups of this sort - I read now and then on a few, but I DO KNOW THAT THESE PARTICULAR STORIES WERE UNIQUE TO THE GROUP TO WHICH YOU REFER BECAUSE THE POSTER HERSELF (THE SAME WOMAN IN BOTH CASES), TOLD ME THIS HERSELF WHEN WE HAD A CONVERSATION IN THE GROUP’S CHAT ROOM”

    So you see, I didn't lie and there is no similarity between your conduct and mine. All you had to do was to read the posts properly to ascertain this.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2006-06-02 23:35 · #

  106. Ladies:
    I never said I spoke to the MSN LADIE NEVER I REPEATED A STORY I READ. I SPOKE TO ANOTHER WOMAN ON A DIFFERENT MESSAGE BOARD. THE BOARD I FOUND THIS GROUP ON WAS NOT A BOARD THAT ORIGINATED ABOUT DD. IT ORIGINATED FROM A SITE THAT WAS A MORE INFORMATIVE TYPE OF SITE WITH DISCUSSION BOARDS. A CONVERSATION THAT STARTED FROM WHAT I READ OVER 2 YEARS AGO ABOUT SEXUALITY TURNED INTO A DD CONVERSATION THE SITE HAD ONLY 10 PEOPLE AT ONE TIME. THIS IS WHY IT WAS DANGEROUS BECAUSE RELATIONSHIPS FORMED EASILY. YOU STARTED TO TALK ABOUT YOUR DAY LIFE THE NEXT THING YOU KNOW YOU ARE DISCUSSING ISSUES ABOUT YOUR CHILDREN. SO NOW YOU ARE IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH A FEW NICE ANONYMOUS PEOPLE WHO YOU ARE BEGINING TO ENJOY HEARING OF THEIR ANTICS. ONE LADIE HAD A MAGNETIC PERSONALITY SO SHE WAS A DRAW TO THE GROUP. I STARTED TO ENJOY READING THE POSTINGS THEY COULD HAVE BEEN IN A MAGAZINE THEY WERE FUNNY AND INTERESTING. THESE LADIES WERE NOT STUDPID 2 WERE VERY WELL EDUCATED SO THEY REALLY COULD HAVE BEEN AUTHORS OF A WEEKLY ARTICLE. I MENTIONED EARLIER ONE WAS VERY SELF INVOLVED SHE SHOWED THAT WHEN KATRINA CAME SHE ENTERED THE BOARD TALKING ABOUT HERSELF. I HAD BEEN VISITING THIS BOARD FOR ABOUT 2 MONTHS I WAS PLANNING ON SAYING GOOD-BYE AFTER THE FIRST MONTH, I ENJOYED LISTENING TO THEIER CRAZY STORIES. WHEN THIS OTHER MUCH MORE RESERVED LADY WHO HAD EMAILED ME LOST HER MOTHER THE OTHER LADY WAS AWAY. I WAS IN A POSITION TO BE AROUND TO EMAIL AND ASK HOW SHE WAS DOING. YES THROUGH NOT DOING THE RIGHT THING I FOUND MYSELF IN A VERY BAD POSITION. IF YOU WANT ME TO CONCEDE TO THAT I WILL. WHEN I TOLD HER AFTER HER MOTHER DIED I WOULD NOT BE POSTING (I WAITED A FEW WEEKS) I HAD NOT BEEN POSTING SHE EMAILED AND ASKED ME WHY. SO I POSTED ON THE BOARD THAT I WOULD NOT BE POSTING AGAIN. SHE EMAILED ME AND WAS VERY ANGRY. I KNOW I DID THE WRONG THING. I WAS CONCERNED FOR HER SINCE I HAVE NOT EMAILED HER IN 8 MONTHS THAT IS WHY I WOULD READ HER POSTINGS TO SEE IF SHE WAS DOING ALLRIGHT.
    THIS IS ABOUT WOMEN & EMOTIONAL ABUSE & WOMEN NOT UNDERSTANDING THEY ARE BEING ABUSED. IT IS NOT ABOUT ME PERSONALLY OR YOU. IT IS ABOUT WOMEN BEING SAFE.

    — Margot · 2006-06-03 06:33 · #

  107. THE LAST THING I WOULD LIKE TO ADD IS THIS DISCUSSION GROUP WAS NOT RELIGOUS BASED THE LADIES IN THIS GROUP MADE IT CLEAR THAT THEY WANTED NOTHING TO DO WITH CONNECTING THIS TO ANY RELIGOUS BELIEFS, ONE EVEN STATED SHE WAS AGNOSTIC. DURING A DISCUSSION I REMEMBER MENTION OF MSN GROUPS ONE WOMAN SAID IT WAS WAY TO EXTREME FOR HER TASTE. I WENT TO THE BOARD DURING A VERY BAD WEATHER PERIOD IN THE EAST LAST WINTER (JUST WANTED TO READ IF SHE WAS OK) YOU SEE IN THE EAST WE GET HOUSE LOCKED IN BLIZARDS. I SAW NO POSTINGS I REMEMBERED SHE POSTED ON OTHER SITES SO I WENT TO YOUR SITE TO SEE IF SHE WAS POSTING ON THAT SITE. I REALLY JUST WANTED TO SEE IF SHE WAS DOING ALLRIGHT. SHE HAD MENTIONED HAVING OTHER EMOTIONAL ISSUES IN OTHER CONVERSATIONS. IT IS THE OLD WISE TALE OF TELL ONE LIE "OH WHAT A WEB WE WEAVE WHEN FIRST START TO DECEIVE". I ADMIT I DID AN AWFUL THING NOT ONLY TO SOMEONE ELSE ALSO MYSELF.
    THIS STILL DOES NOT REMOVE THE FACT THAT MILLIONS OF WOMEN AND MEN ARE LIVING IN EMOTIONAL AND PHYSICAL ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIPS. THESE PEOPLE DON'T EVEN SEE HOW MUCH DAMAGE THESE RELATIONSHIPS ARE DOING TO THEM. IF A WOMAM WANTS AND NEEDS THIS WHO AM I TO JUDGE. I AM SAYING STOP PROMOTING THIS ON SITES THAT ARE EASY TO ACCESS.

    — MARGOT · 2006-06-03 09:06 · #

  108. Uh oh...She's written her "LAST" comment (LOL)again...and it's in CAPS!!

    I guess she thinks that if she keeps repeating the SAME lies she's been telling all along but does it REALLY LOUDLY we'll think it's a new argument?


    Here's a little tip for her (before she busts a blood vessle or something):

    Repeating the same lie over and over again WON'T ever make it true.....even if it's done it in caps!



    — Adult Woman · 2006-06-03 15:00 · #

  109. "Domestic Discipline is a term usually used when refering goverment fiscal spending."

    No my dear - that's FISCAL Discipline, which is about domestic spending.

    Unless a person was truly looking for a place to vent. They would not have found an ANTI DOMESTIC DISCIPLINE SITE that is what I was looking for.

    Yes, but the only trouble is that it's a PUBLIC site which anyone might 'stumble on and that might generate an interest in DD for some on these poor half witted women that you keep trying to 'protect'.

    "I just googled submissive women 4,530,000 sites came up. On page 2 was a Taken in Hand site link.

    Then I googled Domestic Discipline 24,100,000 sites came up. Unless you use a different Google then me(which is imposable)finding this is not so hard."

    Not if you do it with hindsight and know which terms to look for. However the two different sets of key words that you claimed to have used in your original search DO NOT throw up a reference to 'Taken-in Hand' or to any DD sites(bearing in mind that T-I-H is NOT one). Second flaw in your logic is when that you follow the link to which you refer, it doesn't lead to anything that mentions Domestic Discipline or even spanking, but to an article about how women can be 'alpha'and still prefer men who are dominant, so you still wouldn't know to make a search using the term 'DD'.

    "I have never insulted your family just DD. Your family is much more then DD. They could be the kindest people in the world. That also goes for the other ladies. I condemned promoting DD and it getting into the wrong hands."

    I'll just quote you:-

    "I am convinced what you are doing is transfering the resentment you are holding towards your domestic situation. You cannot speak or vent at your spouse so you are doing it to me. You said "we have already dealt with that" I am sure that is how your husband speaks to you when he is disciplining you. I would not allow my husband to speak to me like that nor would I speak to him like that, I don't even talk to my nanny like that. In my house we are all(kids,dog & nanny) equals so we say what we feel. We know how to speak to each other with respect we learned from love and good breeding. If my husband hurts me or I hurt him we aknowledge what we did, we are adults so we apologize and move on. I was not put on this earth to obey him he does not have to obey me."

    All assumptions directed at my husband and how he behaves and treats me and all completely wrong.

    "The other thing is Mr. Fondly and Firmly had a problem in Australia. So I am not the only person who had a problem with this."

    Actually, while the law in Australia is marginally different from that of most countries, his orginal problem with the authorities was due to some political stuff he wrote that was considered to be 'subversive' and ever since then he has been 'tracked' by the Australian administration."


    I would like to end this more then you would except I am not allowing you to bully me into stopping."

    I have no interest in "bullying" anybody, although frankly this is one of the best examples so far of your favorite, "pot calling the kettle black". I'm also perfectly happy for you to post as often and as fully as you wish, but it would help your cause greatly if you didn't make a regular 'FINAL' post only to directly follow that up with an average of three new ones each claiming that somebody else is trying to prevent you from having your say.

    Caro




    — Caro · 2006-06-03 19:42 · #

  110. Ladies:
    I never said I spoke to the MSN LADIE NEVER I REPEATED A STORY I READ. I SPOKE TO ANOTHER WOMAN ON A DIFFERENT MESSAGE BOARD. THE BOARD I FOUND THIS GROUP ON WAS NOT A BOARD THAT ORIGINATED ABOUT DD. IT ORIGINATED FROM A SITE THAT WAS A MORE INFORMATIVE TYPE OF SITE WITH DISCUSSION BOARDS. A CONVERSATION THAT STARTED FROM WHAT I READ OVER 2 YEARS AGO ABOUT SEXUALITY TURNED INTO A DD CONVERSATION THE SITE HAD ONLY 10 PEOPLE AT ONE TIME. THIS IS WHY IT WAS DANGEROUS BECAUSE RELATIONSHIPS FORMED EASILY. YOU STARTED TO TALK ABOUT YOUR DAY LIFE THE NEXT THING YOU KNOW YOU ARE DISCUSSING ISSUES ABOUT YOUR CHILDREN. SO NOW YOU ARE IN A RELATIONSHIP WITH A FEW NICE ANONYMOUS PEOPLE WHO YOU ARE BEGINING TO ENJOY HEARING OF THEIR ANTICS. ONE LADIE HAD A MAGNETIC PERSONALITY SO SHE WAS A DRAW TO THE GROUP. I STARTED TO ENJOY READING THE POSTINGS THEY COULD HAVE BEEN IN A MAGAZINE THEY WERE FUNNY AND INTERESTING. THESE LADIES WERE NOT STUDPID 2 WERE VERY WELL EDUCATED SO THEY REALLY COULD HAVE BEEN AUTHORS OF A WEEKLY ARTICLE. I MENTIONED EARLIER ONE WAS VERY SELF INVOLVED SHE SHOWED THAT WHEN KATRINA CAME SHE ENTERED THE BOARD TALKING ABOUT HERSELF. I HAD BEEN VISITING THIS BOARD FOR ABOUT 2 MONTHS I WAS PLANNING ON SAYING GOOD-BYE AFTER THE FIRST MONTH, I ENJOYED LISTENING TO THEIER CRAZY STORIES. WHEN THIS OTHER MUCH MORE RESERVED LADY WHO HAD EMAILED ME LOST HER MOTHER THE OTHER LADY WAS AWAY. I WAS IN A POSITION TO BE AROUND TO EMAIL AND ASK HOW SHE WAS DOING. YES THROUGH NOT DOING THE RIGHT THING I FOUND MYSELF IN A VERY BAD POSITION. IF YOU WANT ME TO CONCEDE TO THAT I WILL. WHEN I TOLD HER AFTER HER MOTHER DIED I WOULD NOT BE POSTING (I WAITED A FEW WEEKS) I HAD NOT BEEN POSTING SHE EMAILED AND ASKED ME WHY. SO I POSTED ON THE BOARD THAT I WOULD NOT BE POSTING AGAIN. SHE EMAILED ME AND WAS VERY ANGRY. I KNOW I DID THE WRONG THING. I WAS CONCERNED FOR HER SINCE I HAVE NOT EMAILED HER IN 8 MONTHS THAT IS WHY I WOULD READ HER POSTINGS TO SEE IF SHE WAS DOING ALLRIGHT.

    Marjorie,

    I haven't disputed a single word about what you say above, except to point out that you idea of 'friendship' is somwhat warped, and you seem to think that people you 'meet' on the internet don't have the same feelings as those you meet face to face.

    THIS IS ABOUT WOMEN & EMOTIONAL ABUSE & WOMEN NOT UNDERSTANDING THEY ARE BEING ABUSED. IT IS NOT ABOUT ME PERSONALLY OR YOU. IT IS ABOUT WOMEN BEING SAFE.

    This I dispute quite positively. If a woman does not FEEL abused, and she is comfortable and happy with who she is and how she lives then is then she is NOT being abused even if she chooses to live her life in a way that for YOU would feel abusive. Like 'kink', it's in the eye of the beholder and everyone has the right to their own perceptions. This is what you do not seem able to grasp in that you want to project YOUR idea of what is 'normal', 'safe' or 'kinky' onto other people when their perception may be completely different.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2006-06-03 19:56 · #

  111. THE LAST THING I WOULD LIKE TO ADD IS THIS DISCUSSION GROUP WAS NOT RELIGOUS BASED THE LADIES IN THIS GROUP MADE IT CLEAR THAT THEY WANTED NOTHING TO DO WITH CONNECTING THIS TO ANY RELIGOUS BELIEFS, ONE EVEN STATED SHE WAS AGNOSTIC.

    Than why do you keep pushing the idea that DD has to do with religion?

    DURING A DISCUSSION I REMEMBER MENTION OF MSN GROUPS ONE WOMAN SAID IT WAS WAY TO EXTREME FOR HER TASTE. I WENT TO THE BOARD DURING A VERY BAD WEATHER PERIOD IN THE EAST LAST WINTER (JUST WANTED TO READ IF SHE WAS OK) YOU SEE IN THE EAST WE GET HOUSE LOCKED IN BLIZARDS. I SAW NO POSTINGS I REMEMBERED SHE POSTED ON OTHER SITES SO I WENT TO YOUR SITE TO SEE IF SHE WAS POSTING ON THAT SITE. I REALLY JUST WANTED TO SEE IF SHE WAS DOING ALLRIGHT. SHE HAD MENTIONED HAVING OTHER EMOTIONAL ISSUES IN OTHER CONVERSATIONS. IT IS THE OLD WISE TALE OF TELL ONE LIE "OH WHAT A WEB WE WEAVE WHEN FIRST START TO DECEIVE". I ADMIT I DID AN AWFUL THING NOT ONLY TO SOMEONE ELSE ALSO MYSELF.

    You've said all this before and most of it hasn't been the subject of dispute. I'm interested though as to why you tak about going to MY board. Do you mean the MSN board at which we both read, or do you imagine that I run a DD board?

    THIS STILL DOES NOT REMOVE THE FACT THAT MILLIONS OF WOMEN AND MEN ARE LIVING IN EMOTIONAL AND PHYSICAL ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIPS.

    That is very true, but DD relationships are not among these as you must well know from visiting the DD boards. They are formed by mutual consent and conducted to standards and limits agreed by two equal adult partners. The people in them (and yes I know there is the odd exception to this, but that is not commonplace) feel happy and fulfilled by their lifestyle choice and are not damaged physically or emotionally by it. It is just a matter of respecting that what would be 'abuse' for you isn't necessarily the same for somebody else, just as some things that YOU do might not suit them.

    THESE PEOPLE DON'T EVEN SEE HOW MUCH DAMAGE THESE RELATIONSHIPS ARE DOING TO THEM. IF A WOMAM WANTS AND NEEDS THIS WHO AM I TO JUDGE.

    I have tried to explain above that you are judging other people by your own standards and projecting your personal perception of 'abuse' and 'damage' onto them while theirs might be completely different.

    I AM SAYING STOP PROMOTING THIS ON SITES THAT ARE EASY TO ACCESS.

    I still don't think that you have demonstrated in the smallest way that this ease of access or 'promotion'is actually happening.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2006-06-03 20:16 · #

  112. Caro;
    This is my problem with the entire religous theory of DD. Many of the women who practice DD do so because of religous beliefs. We are all adults we get up in the morning do the best we can. As adults when we do something wrong we have to live with what we did. My father use to say do the right thing. Many times my husband or friend's will guestion why I have done something for someone who I should not have I will always remember what my father instilled in me do the right thing. No I was not spanked as a child except I could not look my father or mother in the eye and lie. That same thing applies to my husband I cannot look him in the eye and lie. I am sure the ladies who practice DD have the same if not more values for the truth. So if you do something wrong as an adult woman you should have to deal with it within yourself not allow a man to correct that action. The other thing about God and DD is that many of these women home school so the values that they have are taught to their children. The entire purpose of home schooling is so you can have total control over what influences your child and their thought process. That child grows up believing precisely what it has been taught. No exposure to any other litature or thought process has that child been exposed too. So how is that girl when she becomes a woman making her own choices to give up control to her husband? Since the begining of time we have put men in a higher reverence. The only character Antigone from Greek mythology was a woman of strength even her sister argued it was a mans world why go against men you are only a women. This attitude predates the bible. We have allowed men to say God is a man, maybe God is woman.
    Adult women wrote not only is DD accepted it is expected that mean to be a member of her church you must accept DD. I believe God forgives by allowing a person accept he or she has done wrong then that person attempts to make a mends if it can be corrected. Or they learn from the mistake they made and try not to do it again. To me that is the most any human being should be expected to make.
    I have never posted on any ohter board, never written an oped nor contacted a TV show. I have not even protested I am not a political person. The only thing I do is vote and volunteer. So how I could be a threat to your community is ludicrous. I went on line after hearing all sorts of stories over the last 2 years of internet affairs and people changing theirs lives over internet relationships. So a light bulb went off I need to write a paper on behaviors. I remember talking to a recently divorced friend she was talking about how she became addicted to anonymous men on the internet after the divorce. She then said it was hindering her meeting a real man. She had to stop going on line. How I found DD maybe I subconciously have interest or maybe I just ended up there. Does it really matter.
    The thing I would be most concerned about is someone else getting hurt. Last month a website which you could advertise information about yourself was all over the news. Kids used it alot a murder occured from two kids that met. I hope this never happens to anyone who meets on a DD site. It could happen from personals or this information getting into the wrong hands. Once a homicide has happened they always go to the computer. Then some agressive feminist type reporter reads this DD stuff. The next thing you know you are in the news. I pray to God this does not happen except in the world we live in it could. So I am not a threat to your community I just got nosey then I replied to something that I read that I found scarey. I posted one time then a federal investigatiion went underway across the Atlantic.
    By the way I did not get the 1984 Georgoe Orwell remark because I hated the book. So I guess I just forgot about it after I handed in my report on the book except it was not in high school it was seventh grade. I have personalized this so much because every word has been disected and twisted. If I were you ladies I would be trying to figure out how to keep our community safe not attack a ladie with just an opinion.
    Margot

    — margot · 2006-06-05 08:44 · #

  113. Caro:
    1. On June 1 you made a statement that you owned/or co managed groups well unless you don't do anything else one is to assume these groups are DD orientated.
    2. The internet is not a healthy place to meet friends especially when it is on a discussion board. This has been proven time and again. People do go to certain sites that are for the purpose of meeting such as groups for Jews, Catholics, and single parents. The sites they meet on do a thorough investigation of the people they are connecting. Then there is groups that advertise book clubs, music goups , yoga classes they have a place for people who share the same interest to meet. I am sorry Anonymous people on the internet who meet in discussion groups are not meant to be friends, that is why it is anonymous. I feel sorry for any person who is counting on anonymous person for social support. This is the problem with the internet people are spending less time living a functional life the are talking to a person they do not know.
    3. I said it before the phrases you ladies used are not ones that a person who did not have strong religous convictions would not use.
    4. I did not personally attack you your comment was you will deal with me or something like that. I then responded that must be the way your husband speaks to you when he is lecturing you. I do not talk to my nanny like that (she would quit).
    5. The promoting of DD relationships to people you do not know is dangerous. You do not know who you are promoting them to. You also do not know if the people who you are telling to go for this DD life are in a relationship with a safe person.
    6. The inital post not made by me condems the use of DD along with its connection to religon. That is how the religous part came into this thread.
    7.Every time I have made a statement you ladies have ripped me apart. I spoke my peace so you decided to discredit everything I said.
    Then you try to turn me into some sort of pervert who is looking to get my jollys off of this. Does that mean Seebach was doing the same thing when he discovered DD. Or Sherri & Bob who run a site for marital advice have not such nice things to say about DD. So any person who investigates DD after hearing about has to be a pervert or liar. You say I am on high horse maybe you should think about a few of the things I have said. You and your friends should think about other peoples safety not just how much your personal freedom is being challanged.

    — margot · 2006-06-05 15:24 · #

  114. put into google 'psychology of spanking'. The eighth site to come up is Taken in Hand. Now I think many students or a person doing research would find Taken in Hand very easily(unless they cannot read).

    — margot · 2006-06-05 19:05 · #

  115. Caro:
    "1. On June 1 you made a statement that you owned/or co managed
    groups well unless you don't do anything else one is to assume these groups
    are DD orientated."

    Wrong. What I said word for word was,

    "I do however know about groups and free sites, because my hobby is PSP
    and graphics and I own' or co-manage several groups, blogs and free
    websites on a number of platforms including Yahoo and MSN"

    which I think made it perfectly clear that my groups were related to graphics
    and Paint Shop Pro.

    "2. The internet is not a healthy place to meet friends especially when it is
    on a discussion board. This has been proven time and again. People do go to
    certain sites that are for the purpose of meeting such as groups for Jews,
    Catholics, and single parents. The sites they meet on do a thorough
    investigation of the people they are connecting. Then there is groups that
    advertise book clubs, music goups , yoga classes they have a place for
    people who share the same interest to meet. I am sorry Anonymous people
    on the internet who meet in discussion groups are not meant to be friends,
    that is why it is anonymous."

    If you give me several specific and non hypothetical examples to
    demonstrate that, "it has been proven time and again", that interaction on
    an internet discussion board" is not a healthy way to make friends, then I
    may CONSIDER the possibility that this is not just another one of your
    groundless theories. Until then I will rely on my PERSONAL and REAL experience over a period of several years to tell me otherwise.

    People certainly do go to OTHER types of DISCUSSION groups in order to
    meet people of like mind, and on the majority of them you can join
    without giving any personal information whatsoever. In any case as you
    yourself have said, only a certain amount of information that anyone
    gives on the internet can be verified for sure and in this way it is not
    dissimilar to when you meet another person in a 'real life' situation.

    It is nonsense to say for no viable reason that people who meet on the
    internet are "not meant to be friends", and 'I am sorry' that you are clearly
    one of a minority of people have never had the pleasure of forming an
    online friendship and later meeting an online friend in person. I wouldn't
    call such a friendship 'social support' any more than I would call my
    friendship with the lady who lives two doors away by such a label.

    "This is the problem with the internet people are spending less time living
    a functional life"

    I know that this is not true of me because I have a full time job, a family, a busy social life and various hobbies, and the internet has simply added one further dimension to an already full life. It is true that, at first the 'net' can be something of a novelty and you can spend too much time exploring but in my experience, that soons rights itself. For myself I probably spend more time reading and watching television than I do on the internet. Have you perhaps found that the internet 'addiction' has been a problem for you?

    "the are talking to a person they do not know".

    What other method besides talking and contact would you recommend in order to GET to know people?

    Contact on the internet is sometimes anonymous in its early stages. Just as you would not give details of your life to a person you met for the first time, this is a precaution that some people take in the iterests of safety. Once a bond of friendship and trust has been established as far as is possible, more details may be revealed.

    "3. I said it before the phrases you ladies used are not ones that a person
    who did not have strong religous convictions would not use."

    I have already explained that, while I do have my own brand of faith, I do not particpate in organised religion and have not done for years. Your perception of 'religious' is vastly different from mine and I would not agree that any of the words that you have seized on were signs of 'religion'.

    "4. I did not personally attack you your comment was you will deal with
    me or something like that. I then responded that must be the way your
    husband speaks to you when he is lecturing you. I do not talk to my nanny
    like that (she would quit)."

    You raised the same matter twice in the same comment and I responded to it the first time so, rather than repeat myself and bore everybody, I just said that I had already dealt with, (as in responded to), the matter above. I definitely neither said nor implied anything about dealing with YOU. Your reply to this was to assume without basis that my husband is a dictatorial man who has no respect for me. As a person who construes almost any expression of an opinion that is different from her own as an 'attack' I, are you seriously saying that if I made these assumptions about YOUR husband and your relationship with him, you wouldn't consider that to be an 'attack?

    "5. The promoting of DD relationships to people you do not know is
    dangerous. You do not know who you are promoting them to. You also do
    not know if the people who you are telling to go for this DD life are in a
    relationship with a safe person.

    With your help, it has already been demonstrated several times over that it is somewhere between very difficult and completely impossible to find a DD group or site unless you are familiar with the term, know what it means and are specifically looking for information on the subject. It therefore follows that anyone visiting such a place already has a prior interest in DD and is there to find out more about it. What the people on these sites and forums do is simply to provide the data to enable such people to make their own informed decision on the subject. It isn't a case of 'promotion' or 'telling anyone else what they should or should not do.

    6. The inital post not made by me condems the use of DD along with its
    connection to religon. That is how the religous part came into this thread.

    The intial post DID NOT assume that every person who practises DD does so on religious grounds, and Seebach didn't use rather faulty pseudo pyschology to create inaccurate 'backgrounds for other posters.

    7.Every time I have made a statement you ladies have ripped me apart. I
    spoke my peace so you decided to discredit everything I said.

    Well no. What actually happened was that you stated your opinion and we stated ours. You did not like that opinion, so you resorted to anger, name calling and personal judgements based on very little evidence or logic at all. Throughout the thread it is you who have attempted to rip other people apart and to attack their core values, not the other way around. Frankly, so much of what you have said has been inaccurate, that you discredited yourself.

    "Then you try to turn me into some sort of pervert who is looking to get my jollys off of this."

    I don't think you are any kind of pervert and I have never said so. I believe that are you are a person who entered into this with honorable intentions, but unfortunately with preconceived notions and a completely closed mind.

    "Does that mean Seebach was doing the same thing when he discovered DD."

    Seebach explained that he had chanced on a thread about DD elsewhere. From what he says in his post I would have to assume that, like this one, it was a single anti-DD thread in a public place and is probably the sum total of his acquaintance with the subject.

    "Or Sherri & Bob who run a site for marital advice have not such nice things to say about DD. So any person who investigates DD after hearing about has to be a pervert or liar."

    Like Seebach, Sherri and Bob have simply stated their personal opinion of DD and explained why they hold it. That is their privilege just as it is yours and mine. What they have not done is to hang around on DD sites on false pretences and then tried to use that to assisnate the characters and moral convictions of other people.

    To repeat what I have said above, nobody has called you a 'pervert' because no-one else here equates DD with 'kink or 'perversion' However, a couple of us have made the observation that the diligence with which you searched out the material on DD and the length of time that you spent involved with the groups suggests an interest above and beyond the call of mere duty.

    "You say I am on high horse maybe you should think about a few of the things I have said."

    It is WHAT you have said which leads us to believe that you are on a 'high horse' because you seem to have no capacity for even trying to understanding
    Contact on the internet is sometimes anonymous in its early stages. Just as you would not give details of your life to a person you met for the first time, this is a precaution that some people take in the interests of safety. Once a bond of friendship and trust has been established as far as is possible, more details may be revealed. of any opinion that you do not share.

    "You and your friends should think about other peoples safety not just how much your personal freedom is being challanged."

    I always consider dangers to other people's safety WHEN THEY EXIST. However, as I have explained many times before, DD is is a mutually agreed arrangement between two consenting adults. If one of them doesn't want it then he/she is at liberty to refuse. It therefore follows that, in this instance there is no 'safety' to protect, and what you advocate is a threat, not just to MY personal freedom but to your own and everyone else's. A frightening prospect indeed.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2006-06-06 06:09 · #

  116. put into google 'psychology of spanking'. The eighth site to come up is Taken in Hand. Now I think many students or a person doing research would find Taken in Hand very easily(unless they cannot read).

    Okay - now tell me why a student or anyone else would be looking up 'psychology of spanking', if they didn't have a prior interest in it?

    — Caro · 2006-06-06 06:13 · #

  117. Caro;

    "This is my problem with the entire religous theory of DD. Many of the women who practice DD do so because of religous beliefs."

    Who says? Didn't you notice that 99.9% of DD groups and sites are secular.

    "We are all adults we get up in the morning do the best we can. As adults when we do something wrong we have to live with what we did. My father use to say do the right thing. Many times my husband or friend's will guestion why I have done something for someone who I should not have I will always remember what my father instilled in me do the right thing. No I was not spanked as a child except I could not look my father or mother in the eye and lie. That same thing applies to my husband I cannot look him in the eye and lie. I am sure the ladies who practice DD have the same if not more values for the truth. So if you do something wrong as an adult woman you should have to deal with it within yourself not allow a man to correct that action. "

    This is your opinion, and you are entitled to it, although there is no 'should' about it. What you are not entitled to do is to deny another adult the right to a different opinion or way of life.

    "The other thing about God and DD is that many of these women home school so the values that they have are taught to their children. The entire purpose of home schooling is so you can have total control over what influences your child and their thought process. That child grows up believing precisely what it has been taught. No exposure to any other litature or thought process has that child been exposed too. So how is that girl when she becomes a woman making her own choices to give up control to her husband?"

    Going through this paragraph item by item. I don't think that it is particularly commonplace for religious women to home school although there are some who do. I definitely do not agree that they do it for the purpose of control, but rather because they believe that they are protecting their children from the stresses and temptations of life in public school and can give them a better start educationally in life. Personally I don't think that it is a good idea because it doesn't prepare a child for a life they will one day have to face. However, many home schooled children are much better and more widely read than those subject to the restrictive policies of public education.

    Since the begining of time we have put men in a higher reverence. The only character Antigone from Greek mythology was a woman of strength even her sister argued it was a mans world why go against men you are only a women. This attitude predates the bible. We have allowed men to say God is a man, maybe God is woman.

    There have been many strong women throughout history and mythology just as there have been many who were weak. However, I don't see how this is relevant to a consensual (as in made equally) choice to adopt DD within an adult relationship.

    I believe that the concept that God is a man rather than a woman is based on the Old Testament declaration that God made man (Adam) in his own image.

    "Adult women wrote not only is DD accepted it is expected that mean to be a member of her church you must accept DD. I believe God forgives by allowing a person accept he or she has done wrong then that person attempts to make a mends if it can be corrected. Or they learn from the mistake they made and try not to do it again. To me that is the most any human being should be expected to make."

    I don't think that's what Adult Woman said at all. I think her meaning was that she and her husband believe in the biblical principle of WIFELY SUBMISSION and that her church preaches the same doctrine. DD is an entirely different and non biblical matter and one which is usually personal and private to the couple concerned.

    "I have never posted on any ohter board, never written an oped nor contacted a TV show. I have not even protested I am not a political person. The only thing I do is vote and volunteer. So how I could be a threat to your community is ludicrous."

    I don't think anyone thinks that one women with no power base is a threat to the DD community and I also don't believe that anyone would mind if you did take your theories more public with the exception of reproducing private matters in the public domain without the permission of the individuals concerned.

    "I went on line after hearing all sorts of stories over the last 2 years of internet affairs and people changing theirs lives over internet relationships. So a light bulb went off I need to write a paper on behaviors."

    You explained this before and I didn't dispute your motives.

    "I remember talking to a recently divorced friend she was talking about how she became addicted to anonymous men on the internet after the divorce. She then said it was hindering her meeting a real man. She had to stop going on line."

    I am sure that this DOES happen and that it isn't an isolated event. On the other hand, there are probably just as many people who don't get addicted to the internet or who find a real man through initial contact on the met. In fact I myself have two internet friend (yes I have met them in person) who met via an internet divorce support group and married three years later.

    "How I found DD maybe I subconciously have interest or maybe I just ended up there. Does it really matter."

    It doesn't matter in the personal sense, but it does to your arguments that DD sites 'promote' the practise and are easy to 'stumble on'.

    The thing I would be most concerned about is someone else getting hurt. Last month a website which you could advertise information about yourself was all over the news. Kids used it alot a murder occured from two kids that met.

    I think that the problem here is that there is no way that you can totally control everything that happens on the internet. You could remove every dating agency, website and chat room that might possibly be a danger to a child or adult and people with bad intentions would just come online pretending to be somebody else in order to trap the vunerable. Another consideration is that you'd also have to close down similar facilities in newspapers, magazines and offices. The only thing we can to at the moment is to closely monitor our children's internet activities and try to protect them as far as we can.

    I hope this never happens to anyone who meets on a DD site. It could happen from personals or this information getting into the wrong hands. Once a homicide has happened they always go to the computer. Then some agressive feminist type reporter reads this DD stuff. The next thing you know you are in the news.

    It wouldn't be the first time that this has happened in connection with DD.

    I pray to God this does not happen except in the world we live in it could. So I am not a threat to your community I just got nosey then I replied to something that I read that I found scarey. I posted one time then a federal investigatiion went underway across the Atlantic.

    It's not 'my community' and I know you do not have the influence to be a threat. Like you I simply posted once in response to something I read, and you respinded to that post alone five times before I posted again. Why do you say it went across the Atlantic?

    By the way I did not get the 1984 Georgoe Orwell remark because I hated the book. So I guess I just forgot about it after I handed in my report on the book except it was not in high school it was seventh grade.

    I didn't like the book either, but it is relevant socially.

    I have personalized this so much because every word has been disected and twisted. If I were you ladies I would be trying to figure out how to keep our community safe not attack a ladie with just an opinion.

    I'm sure the ladies of the DD community don't feel threatened in the least and I still maintain that all anyone has done has to respond to words that you yourself wrote. If you think that constitutes twisting your words or attacking you then so be it, but I don't have to agree. If you really want to prove your point, then perhaps you'd like to provide a few examples of both instances so that we can defend ourselves from this allegation.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2006-06-06 07:26 · #

  118. Margot you wrote:

    "This is my problem with the entire religous theory of DD. Many of the women who practice DD do so because of religous beliefs. "

    That brief sentence alone goes a long way in explaining why you have almost zero credibility at this point.

    Your argument (to date) has never been about the "religious therory" of DD and the fact that you've AGAIN switched gears and are trying to make it appear as though you have a problem with only the "religious" aspect of it is simply another example of how you duck and weave in your determination to be "right".

    I think that the VERY FEW women on THIS board who consent to DD (myself included)or have some general knowledge about the lifestyle have made it very clear that anyone who claims it's a "God-given right" for a man to spank his wife is totally off the mark.

    Does faith play into the decision to live within a marriage in which the Husband is the head of the home? Well, of course, that's clearly Scriptural but I don't recall anyone ON THIS BOARD ever claiming that a Husband leading a home translated in any way to his "right" to discipline his wife. And it with the posters on THIS BOARD that you are so hell-bent on justifying yourself to.

    Naturally, you've again attempted to alter your original story to coincide with your argument of the day. How very tiresome.

    — Adult Woman · 2006-06-06 08:59 · #

  119. Can you believe that she actually changed her story AGAIN?!!

    Is she seriously trying to claim THIS TIME that she actually googled "psychology of spanking" when she originially decided to research...hmmm...what was it? Oh yeah, "the effects the internet had on sexual behavior".

    Wonder how many hours she wasted and how many keywords she had to test in order to get the Taken in Hand site to make a google list so she could present her latest fabrication as fact?

    It astounds me that this self proclaimed "honorable woman" cannot muster the dignity to simply admit she was wrong and move on but chooses instead to surrender to the pathological (and frightening) nature she obviously has to compound one lie with another in the hopes it will all become too convoluted to sort through.

    Honestly, I think I'd have more respect for her if she had turned tail and ran when confronted with her lies.


    — Adult Woman · 2006-06-06 17:34 · #

  120. Caro:
    You have responded like a lady I apologize for what ever I said in any prior post to offend you(I made some insulting remarks).
    Margot

    — margot · 2006-06-07 16:35 · #

  121. No, I did not I googled Psychology of Spanking on Monday night. I was trying to prove my point Taken in Hand is not that hard to find. I need to know what part of the country you live in, I want to make sure I never visit.

    — margot · 2006-06-07 16:48 · #

  122. Adult woman,
    Once again you have proven my alligations that you twist my words. I referenced google psychology of spanking. I did not say when I did that. I did it after I wanted to prove how off the mark you are about it being so hard to access. In a court of law that would not be submitable. Since you seem to be holding Adult Womans Court of Law.
    As far as the religous thing goes the original posting refers to religion. I worked for a company that purchased a publishing company that wrote books for Christians that home schooled. When the people I worked with read parts of them one day our mouths dropped at how bias they were. So the scriptures has you refer to them are interpreted by the person reading or teaching them. Enough of the religion that we are worlds apart.
    Refering to a person in the third party especially when speaking or writing about them, when they will be reading or hearing you(her,she etc.) is not polite. Caro has not agreed with me except she has been civil, I have at times not given the same consideration, Which I apologize to Caro for doing.

    You keep on talking about being entitled to freedoms. I am also entitled to my opinion, usually it is emotional when I feel strongly about an issue. We will never agree on this topic. I also get very impulsive, like I did in my previous post to you. We live in very different worlds you would not like mine I would not like yours. Our children will never meet or marry. So how you live your life is your business. I should have accepted that a month ago. That is what makes the world diverse. I am not going to spend a month researching my concerns to try to change them into facts. This is starting to become an addiction,yes I admit I am obsessive with an addictive personality/you should have seen me when I use to drink.

    Still one thing that I do not understand WHY? I would resent having to live under any persons authority,I was asked to leave Catholic school in 3rd grade for being head strong. How come women need this if all of my theories are wrong, could you explain why. If you do not want to do something you are told to do, you have to do it anyway. That does not make you hate your spouse? I could not do that I just could not obey my husband, if I did not agree with him. I think that along with the funny stories is what kept me reading on the ONE discussion board I was amazed at the level of submission these woman had. They allowed their husbands to tell them what to do without any resentment. If you feel like explaining I have open ears.
    margot

    — Margot · 2006-06-07 19:44 · #

  123. There she goes making up "facts" again.

    For the record, I NEVER said DD was expected and accepted in my church. (Good grief, I wish this woman would actually READ these posts!)

    What I said was that TRADITIONAL marriage doctrine (Husband head of home with Wife respecting and submitting to his leadership)which is clearly supported by Scripture, by the way, is taught and expected to be advocated in my church (and any other Bible-teaching church for that matter). ALL Scripture (like the 10 Commandments and the Gospels) are ALSO taught with the expectation that the congregation subscribe to THOSE truths as well.

    Geez Louise...this woman is unbelievable!!

    — Adult Woman · 2006-06-08 13:44 · #

  124. You did not answer my question. The scriptures are by interpeted by who is interpeting them. We will never find a middle ground I attempted to atleast end this on a amicable note. This is not going to happen. Have a nice life I am done, thie energy and time I need to put into a place that is more productive.

    — Margot · 2006-06-10 14:32 · #

  125. Adult Women:
    You should read your May 10 post. It is all in the person who reads what is written interpretation.
    Geez Louise!

    — margot · 2006-06-12 11:42 · #

  126. I didn't answer Margot's question because she's made two things patently obvious in this thread:

    (1) She has no genuine interest in why a woman would choose a DD marriage...only in condeming the women who do...so I truly see no legitimate reason for explaining to her why I've choosen this lifestyle or in convincing her my choice is right for me.

    and (2) She is pathological in her need to have the last word.

    — Adult Woman · 2006-06-12 16:13 · #

  127. Okay...I re-read my May 10th post and here are my exact words in that post that Margot now claims is open for "interpretation":

    "You are correct in guessing that I am a relgious woman. You are also correct in assuming that within my faith and the community of fellow believers, my choice to submit to my husband and to respect him and his authority in our marriage is not only "acceptable" but an expectation. However, your implication was that the church must support or encourage our choice to incorporate discipline into our marriage which is based on the Scriptural commands that Husband's love their Wives and Wives respect and submit to their Husbands. There is where you are wrong.

    Yes, I admit again, there are extreme "religious" sects of people who use Scripture as their basis for DD. Frankly, those people are DEAD WRONG. God neither forbids nor commands discipline between a husband and wife. That choice is a personal decision that I believe God will honor either way if that decision is exercised within the confines of marriage based on His will. "

    Just how many times will one or all of us PROVE this woman is fabricating "facts" and taking previous statements out of context or blatently misquoting them to support those "facts" before she realizes what an ass she looks like?

    I stand by my ascertation that I NEVER said or implied that DD was an "expectation within my church".

    I guess Margot thought no one would actually bother to scroll back through and find that post...which CLEARLY discredits her and makes it obvious she deliberately misquoted my post so it would "back up" her latest ridiculous point.

    Not that I had to, mind you. I'm fairly certain that, by now, anyone who bothers to read her posts, does so assumming she will remain true to form by taking things out of context, stating unsubstantiated "facts" and outright LYING when it suits her current argument.

    — Adult Woman · 2006-06-14 10:39 · #

  128. Magot, you wote:-

    "You should read your May 10 post. It is all in the person who reads what is written interpretation.!

    In said May 10th post, Adult Woman specifically said that her church didn't advocate DD, and I quote:-

    "However, your implication was that the church must support or encourage our choice to incorporate discipline into our marriage which is based on the Scriptural commands that Husband's love their Wives and Wives respect and submit to their Husbands. There is where you are wrong."

    Caro


    — Caro · 2006-06-15 19:18 · #

  129. Well almost a month as gone by I have gotten over being called a liar and every other mean thing you could say. I do feel vindicated I went snooping again to find out the lady I was concerned about is now in therapy and no longer practicing DD. The site I met her on now has a bunch of wackos posting on it. Nothing like the people who were posting a year ago. Adult women you would not answer my guestion because you do not have one. Caro you see the balance of power between men and women differently then I do, that is what makes a world.

    — Margot · 2006-07-04 05:33 · #

  130. Here something biblical for all of you: "Let he who is WITHOUT sin cast the first stone".

    You are all idiots. Every last one of you. You know nothing about HoH or DD. You think you do. But you haven't a clue. DD isn't based on pain. It's based on trust and respect. Most of these relationhips last for much longer, are far more stable , and HEALTHIER than most any other type of relationship seen. I am not an abuser. My wife is not mentally ill. We practice DD because WE want to. She trusts me with her life. Something I do not take lightly. I trust her with mine. And if she ever wanted to stop, then I would. No questions asked.

    So get your stories straight. What consenting adults do in their own home in no one else's goddamned businiess.

    — Concerned · 2006-09-05 21:37 · #

  131. To each their own. You have adressed every poster on this site by insulting them. It is evident that alot of different opinions have been voiced. What you do in your marriage is your business. I feel that DD is a form of emotional and physical abuse. I also understand that for what ever reasons (I do not understand/who am I to judge)some women need this and want it in their marriage. So if you get something out of it that is great. Except the way you attacked the prior posters I don't think you are as loving as you claim you are. I am not a religous person except I don't use God's name in vein.

    — Ella Bella · 2006-09-15 16:51 · #

  132. Concerned, have you actually READ the posts on this thread? I have to say that it is my considered and definite impression from your comments that you cannot have done.

    If you trouble to do so you will see that, apart from perhaps two or three posts at the start of the thread, a single quite tolerant one at the end, and a large number of comments by Marjorie/Margot, every other post without exception is in defence of the DD HOH way of life, and many have been made by persons who live this way themselves. I would also point out nowhere in the course of the entire thread has anyone, even those diametrically opposed to DD, implied that it is 'based on pain'.

    May I therefore suggest that you take your own advice and 'get your story straight', or at least do other people the simple courtesy of reading their posts, BEFORE you tar 'every last one of us' with the same 'idiots' brush?

    Caro.




    — Caro · 2006-09-30 20:19 · #

  133. The problem I see with your thoughts on DD is that you think it is a man "beating his wife" when in fact there are times that there is no spanking at all. There are alternatives that you did not mention that are more widely used because of public times when spanking is not an option. The ways that you punish your wife are also something that you should both come up with as well as what rules apply to your relationship. It is designed to help the wife become the woman God intended her to be. Anger is not to enter into it at all.
    If you deny your wife time with you every time you get angry with her it is exactly the same yhing and more damaging to the marital relationship. Please do not misunderstand that beating someone out of anger is never a good thing but if you lovingly correct the actions with a spanking it is not abuse especially when it is something you both mutually agree on. Please note that it is something you both agree on.
    I love my wife and would never consider abusing her but I will correct improper behavior whenever it is necessary.

    — Understanding · 2007-01-06 08:20 · #

  134. What give man the superior role to be the corrector of his wife's behavior? She is born with a brain so is he so why is his superior? To me this is a form of control and emotional abuse.

    — Ella Bella · 2007-01-24 19:55 · #

  135. Understanding,

    Are you the same person as who posted earlier in this thread as,'Concerned'? If so, your post was addressed to me in response to my previous post, I think that you have missed my point. The fact that, contrary to your assertion that, we, the people who have posted here,
    see, "DD as a man beating his wife", the majority of the posters on this topic seem to have a view of DD that tallies almost exactly your own. Moreover, although a minority of posters, including the blogger himself, are against DD for various reasons, not one of them has even come close to the suggestion that DD consists of "a man beating his wife"

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-01-27 16:27 · #

  136. Ella Bella

    You ask, "What give man the superior role to be the corrector of his wife's behavior?"

    Very simply; his wife gives him that role.

    "She is born with a brain so is he so why is his superior?"

    His brain isn't "superior", but his wife exercises her equally good brain and right of free choice to put him in this role of authority.

    "To me this is a form of control and emotional abuse."

    Not if it is what his wife wants. Domestic discipline is by nature consensual and is not something that is forced on a wife by her husband.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-01-27 17:19 · #

  137. That doesn`t make it any better, in fact there are men stressed into this dd-thing by their wifes and are unhappy about it. Why? Because whatever you says abour free will and so one, it is wrong! And some men and women has more conscience than others.It is wrong by the scripture, some lies and wrist about the words of God about i, and call themselves christians.But it is still wrong and blasphemic!
    And the government laws forbids violence in the marriage. It(dd) also saps democracy in socsiety. When it comes to an end it is based on an erotic thing. Christian domestic d, is one way to make the name of Jesus throw in the durt.Defending dd or cdd is done by dishonest people.

    — christian wife · 2007-03-10 07:30 · #

  138. That doesn`t make it any better, in fact there are men stressed into this dd-thing by their wifes and are unhappy about it. Why? Because whatever you says abour free will and so one, it is wrong! And some men and women has more conscience than others.It is wrong by the scripture, some lies and wrist about the words of God about i, and call themselves christians.But it is still wrong and blasphemic!
    And the government laws forbids violence in the marriage. It(dd) also saps democracy in socsiety. When it comes to an end it is based on an erotic thing. Christian domestic d, is one way to make the name of Jesus throw in the durt.Defending dd or cdd is done by dishonest people.

    — christian wife · 2007-03-10 07:32 · #

  139. Christian Wife, you said:-


    "That doesn`t make it any better, in fact there are men stressed into this dd-thing by their wifes and are unhappy about it."

    Just as there is a SMALL MINORITY of women on whom a DD lifestyle is forced either by a domineering man, or by a misguided sense of wifely duty, similarly there is also SMALL MINORITY of men who are manipluated into this against their wills. However, a little basic research will show you these small groups are in no way representative of the great majority of DD couples who together make the completely consensual decision to live in this way.

    "Why? Because whatever you says abour free will and so one, it is wrong! And some men and women has more conscience than others.It is wrong by the scripture, some lies and wrist about the words of God about i, and call themselves christians.But it is still wrong and blasphemic!"

    In fact while practioners of CDD often believe that the principle of wifely submission is suggested by the bible, they are quite clear on the point that DD IS NOT advocated by the scriptures. However, by the same token,since the scriptures make absolutely no mention of the practise one way or the other, it cannot be said to be either AGAINST the scriptures or 'blasphemic'. I agree that it would be 'wrong' for some people, but it is a matter for personal choice.

    "And the government laws forbids violence in the marriage. It(dd) also saps democracy in society."

    While VIOLENCE of any kind is forbidden in most civilised societies, with the exception of a very few US states, most constitutions uphold the democratic right of adults to indulge in whatever consensual activities they wish, erotic or otherwise, in the privacy of their own homes provided that these activities do not cause harm to the participants or to other people. To remove this fundamental right of private human choice would be to 'sap democracy'.

    "When it comes to an end it is based on an erotic thing."

    Unless you have indulged in this practise yourself, how would you KNOW that it is 'erotic'? Supposing that you are right, however, how is it wrong for a married couple to privately indulge in a fully consensual erotic act? Remember the verse that says, 'The marriage bed is undefiled'?

    "Christian domestic d, is one way to make the name of Jesus throw in the durt."

    In what way is this principle connected with disrespect to the name of Jesus? Many Christian couples believe in the principle of wifely submission as outlined in Ephesians 5, but none, or at least very few, suggest that the practise of DD is biblical - DD is simply a private and personal life choice.

    "Defending dd or cdd is done by dishonest people."

    It is not dishonest to give an opinion. What WOULD be dishonest would be to pretend that I agree with what you say.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-03-12 21:56 · #

  140. How does it come to that you have the knowledge of that it`s only a small minority that are forced to this lifestyle, both women and men? I have seen a new world on internet about dd, that I didn`t know existed, before, and has done a small researche. When it comes to the erotic thing , you have to be blind or stupid, or not a human being, if one can`t see or observe the very erotic thing in this , and you don`t have to practise it too see that. Just look at the pictures of naked butts and read some of the storys on these pages. It is also a sort of a roleplay, even if some deny it. Very boring too! Always the same presudere.
    As a Christian I think it is blasphemic to make a new arrangement in script in marriage, added to that one you had when you are married.
    When I says that I mean priorly it to become to christians, not secular people. Though I think it is sad and unjustifiable to the children, for both christians and secular families, and very wrong!
    When it comes to Christians ; All that you can`t be open with displeases the Lord, nothing shall be hidden.
    Proverb 30, 5 and 6, is about not to add something to the Word of God, but let it be pure and clean. Human being words are nothing to be trustfull in, they can bee lies.

    I` read this from a Christian page called “ The Marriaged bed” by Lori and Paul Byerli:
    Domestic Discipline
    at Odds With the Word of God.

    Those who practice DD base their stance on scriptures:
    • Old Testament scriptures that describe God chastising his "adulterous" people (spiritual wife). DDers see a parallel of this in a husband's responsibility to chastise his wife.
    • Hebrews 12:5-11, Proverbs 10:13b, 13:24 and similar scriptures. DDers see this as God commending the use of discipline and by extension physical discipline.
    • Eph 5:22-25 Wives ought to submit to their husbands as the church is subject to Christ: DDers feel this command for wives to submit to their husbands is validation that a wife should submit to his use of physical punishment.


    DDers deny that:

    • discipline, including physical discipline, is for children only.
    • DD has anything in common with BDSM, abuse, master/slave relationships, erotic pain, or sexual play.
    • DD is degrading to women.
    • DD interferes with the one flesh union God calls couples to.
    My reply; Of course God means the children.

    Those who practice it, extol DD because:
    • they believe it to be in obedience to God's Word.
    • they see it as a part of God's plan for protection of women, and the exercise of authority over her.
    • they see it as a way of motivating a woman to change/grow.
    • it helps women to not seek control or inappropriate leadership, and teaches submission.
    • it makes peace in the home, children will not see their parents fighting as the father has ultimate authority.
    • it specifies limits of physical discipline, so that there will be no physical abuse.
    It is indeed blasphemic
    Submission in Marriage Roles
    Wives, be subject to your husbands, as it fitting in the Lord. Col. 3:18

    Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. Eph. 5:22

    Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior ... [adorn yourselves] with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hope in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands. 1Pet. 3:1-5

    ... be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be dishonored. Tit. 2:5

    understand that God sees discipline as a good thing, but this does not mean that He validates every form of discipline. I can find no statement in scripture where God tells, or allows, husbands to physically discipline their wives (odd, because He doesn't seem to have forgotten to tell parents to discipline their children). I also find no reference to Christ physically disciplining His disciples or followers (the Christ/church and husband/wife analogy). I do see that God uses hard circumstance to build righteousness in us (the "chastisement" of Hebrew 12:5-11), but it seems clear to me that any reference to physical discipline has to do with young children (including v.10 that speaks of fathers disciplining us for a short time (childhood) and, of course, Proverbs 13:24). If physical discipline is only for children the whole DD philosophy falls apart, so this is a significant battleground for the DDers. I think their arguments lack significant scriptural support, including the fact that a lot of the discipline scriptures are either not gender specific, or speak of the discipline of men (Proverbs 10:13b).


    Adult ability:

    I do see a significant number of scriptures that speak to all believers, male and female, instructing them how to grow up in the Lord. It appears that the Lord believes that women can mature and grow without their husbands "motivating them" through domestic discipline. As with any other believer, wives are to be loved and encouraged in their walk. There is also the instruction for older women to teach the younger women. Difficult sin problems within the church are dealt with through loving confrontation (Gal. 6:1).

    I must also say that the number of women that I know who are walking mature, godly, and submitted lives without DD, makes DD seem unneeded at best.


    Dishonesty:

    I have yet to read an explanation of DD that alludes to anything other than an either/or position. Either you are considering or walking in DD, or you are rebellious or immature. A few consider that those who are not practicing DD are the "weaker brother," something that maturity will take care of.The fact that dd was introduced by nonbelievers or secular people are another very good reason for Christians not to follow this.

    — christian wife · 2007-03-14 13:10 · #

  141. I commend you for standing up for what you believe that DD represents. No man has the right to control a women's behavior or emotions by physical or emotional abuse. I have noticed from prior posting that defenders of DD go from one excuse from the other of why they are right. You are correct in God forgives without insisting on physical correction. Your statement that they are breaking the law holds true in many states. On that you are correct. The other thing is when they get put on the defensive they accuse the other person of finding out about DD through some perverted interest. Do not personalize what they say just keep them in your prayer's (they need it).

    — Ella Bella · 2007-03-14 19:10 · #

  142. "How does it come to that you have the knowledge of that it`s only a small minority that are forced to this lifestyle, both women and men? I have seen a new world on internet about dd, that I didn`t know existed, before, and has done a small researche."

    In so far as ANYONE (including you) can be said to "know" definitely, I know it because, contrary to having done a "small research" on the subject, I have been a member at a variety of DD groups for some years. In my case, my interest began as research, but I have been constantly impressed by the level of commitment, mutual respect and loving care that is present in most of these relationships and I am proud to have friends who practise this lifestyle.

    "As a Christian I think it is blasphemic to make a new arrangement in script in marriage, added to that one you had when you are married."

    I'm sorry but I don't know what you mean by a "script". If you mean the marriage service, which is not in any case biblical but written by man, those of us who are older were married at a time when "obey" was a part of the standard marriage service and was therefore included in the "script ". These days it is not a part of the service, but many couples chose to include it anyway. If you mean that the practise of DD should not be added into an extant marriage, what of those couples who practise it from the start? Finally, if you mean that it should not be practised because it is not a scripturally endorsed part of marriage, why doesn't that apply to the many other things that people do that aren't specifically endorsed by the bible?

    "When I says that I mean priorly it to become to christians, not secular people. Though I think it is sad and unjustifiable to the children, for both christians and secular families, and very wrong
    When it comes to Christians ; All that you can`t be open with displeases the Lord, nothing shall be hidden."

    Unfortunately, you cannot have it both ways. Either DD should be kept private and away from the eyes of the children, because, like sex, it is an intimate and personal transaction between two adults, or we should be completely open and public about both DD and every aspect of our intimate lives, lest we offend the Lord by hiding something. Surely this is a case for simple common sense and a little less literal interpretation! You cannot really believe that God requires us to reveal the intimate details of our sex lives to all and sundry including our children! In any case, we cannot 'hide' anything from Him because He knows all whether we tell our fellow human beings or not.

    "When it comes to the erotic thing , you have to be blind or stupid, or not a human being, if one can`t see or observe the very erotic thing in this , and you don`t have to practise it too see that. Just look at the pictures of naked butts and read some of the storys on these pages. It is also a sort of a roleplay, even if some deny it. Very boring too! Always the same presudere."

    Since this a practise which occurs between adults in committed intimate relationships, there is naturally some erotic component for most couples, but, as I said in an earlier message, eroticism within marriage is not something that the bible frowns on or discourages. As for DD being a form of roleplay, having been involved in DD groups for so long, I have come to the conclusion that, for most couples it is an intricate part of their lives and much more than a mere sexual game. Like any other normal part of everyday life, I daresay that it isn't ALWAYS exciting and stimulating, but then, what part of routine life is?

    "I` read this from a Christian page called “ The Marriaged bed” by Lori and Paul Byerli:
    Domestic Discipline
    at Odds With the Word of God."

    I too have read this article and I found it to be representative of the somewhat limited views and knowledge of the two writers, but not very convincing because much of it is based on hearsay and unsubstantiated assumptions about the motives, intentions and actions of other people. I have also seen a scripturally based refutation of their article which Lori and Paul Byerli refuse to allow to be published and I didn't find that particularly convincing either.

    "• DD is degrading to women."

    I find it degrading to women that the writers so arbitrarily dismiss a woman's right of free choice when it takes a form with which they do not agree.

    "• DD interferes with the one flesh union God calls couples to."

    An interesting claim, but one that is rather difficult to substantiate when you consider that DD is something which occurs within committed intimate relationships and more usually marriages.

    "My reply; Of course God means the children."

    I'm sorry, but what does this mean? DD does not concern children in any way. It is a private and consensual practise which occurs between two adults. If you wish to confirm this, you have only to read the guidelines for online DD groups, most of which specifically prohibit any discussion concerning children.

    "Those who practice it, extol DD because:
    • they believe it to be in obedience to God's Word."

    This is a common misconception advocated by opponents of DD. In the first place DD is a personal and private lifestyle choice and practioners are fully aware that it would not work for everyone. In the second, as I said in an earlier post, no Christian practioner of DD that I have encountered has ever suggested that DD is 'biblical'.

    "• they see it as a part of God's plan for protection of women, and the exercise of authority over her."

    Again Lori and Paul are misinformed. Some Christian DD couples see WIFELY SUBMISSION as a part of God's plan, but it is only opponents of DD who claim that this extends to specifics like DD. Ask any Christian couple who practises DD and they will tell you that, like many other more common marital transactions, DD is neither condemned nor advocated in the scriptures.

    "• they see it as a way of motivating a woman to change/grow."

    It does seem to work in this positive way for many couples.

    "• it helps women to not seek control or inappropriate leadership, and teaches submission."

    This is something I have never encountered in my DD group 'travels'. It seems to me that the majority of women in DD relationships have made a free choice about where they want to be WITHIN their particular relationship, but that the DD regime does not extend to the workplace or what they do outside the home. In fact there seem to be an unusually high proprotion of DD wives/partners in high level positions in responsible professionslike medicine, law and education.

    "• it makes peace in the home, children will not see their parents fighting as the father has ultimate authority."

    I suppose that it could be said that the children of DD couples might benefit from the example shown by parents who treat each other with respect and consideration and do not argue in front of them.

    "• it specifies limits of physical discipline, so that there will be no physical abuse."

    Consensual DD is not adopted as an alternative to physical abuse, but for completely different reasons, but I suppose that you could say that practioners do take great care to ensure that it does not exceed safe and mutually acceptable limits.

    "It is indeed blasphemic"

    You have yet to demonstrate this.

    "Submission in Marriage Roles
    Wives, be subject to your husbands, as it fitting in the Lord. Col. 3:18

    Wives, be subject to your own husbands, as to the Lord. Eph. 5:22

    Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. In the same way, you wives, be submissive to your own husbands so that even if any of them are disobedient to the word, they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior ... [adorn yourselves] with the imperishable quality of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is precious in the sight of God. For in this way in former times the holy women also, who hope in God, used to adorn themselves, being submissive to their own husbands. 1Pet. 3:1-5

    ... be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be dishonored. Tit. 2:5"

    These are the verses on which many, Christian couples base their belief in wifely submission. You will note, however, that they make no mention of DD or any other practise.

    "understand that God sees discipline as a good thing, but this does not mean that He validates every form of discipline. I can find no statement in scripture where God tells, or allows, husbands to physically discipline their wives (odd, because He doesn't seem to have forgotten to tell parents to discipline their children). I also find no reference to Christ physically disciplining His disciples or followers (the Christ/church and husband/wife analogy). I do see that God uses hard circumstance to build righteousness in us (the "chastisement" of Hebrew 12:5-11), but it seems clear to me that any reference to physical discipline has to do with young children (including v.10 that speaks of fathers disciplining us for a short time (childhood) and, of course, Proverbs 13:24). If physical discipline is only for children the whole DD philosophy falls apart, so this is a significant battleground for the DDers. I think their arguments lack significant scriptural support, including the fact that a lot of the discipline scriptures are either not gender specific, or speak of the discipline of men (Proverbs 10:13b)."

    You (or is this from the the article?) are wrong when you say that the mention of physical discipline in the bible is confined to children. 'A rod for the back of fools' is just one of many exceptions to this, but,as you say, there is no mention of the physical discipline of wives. This is why Christian DD couples do not waste time trying to prove or validate it 'scripturally'. However, the fact that it is NOT mentioned does not automatically INVALIDATE it, unless the same philosophy applies to the thousand and one other things that we do in our everyday lives that are not specifically mentioned or described in every detail in the bible.

    "Adult ability:
    I do see a significant number of scriptures that speak to all believers, male and female, instructing them how to grow up in the Lord. It appears that the Lord believes that women can mature and grow without their husbands "motivating them" through domestic discipline. As with any other believer, wives are to be loved and encouraged in their walk. There is also the instruction for older women to teach the younger women."

    Yes, but neither does the bible specify WHAT methods of motivation should or should not be be used or who should apply them. If this is the way a couple mutually chooses to mature and grow in the Lord, and it works for them, the fact that not EVERYONE agrees with it does not make it 'wrong'.

    "Difficult sin problems within the church are dealt with through loving confrontation"

    Many people would describe a DD encounter as a "loving confrontation".

    "I must also say that the number of women that I know who are walking mature, godly, and submitted lives without DD, makes DD seem unneeded at best."

    I would certainly agree that it is neither wanted nor needed by many women and should not be imposed on them. By the same token however, that does not mean that NO women want or need it. Also, would you like to consider the fact that no woman of your acquaintance who is aware of your opposition to DD is going to tell you that she practises it?

    "Dishonesty:"

    An ironic choice of heading in view of the fact that you have made a series of unsubstantiated claims and assumptions on this topic.

    "I have yet to read an explanation of DD that alludes to anything other than an either/or position. Either you are considering or walking in DD, or you are rebellious or immature."

    Then you need to read more extensively. I repeat that DD is a personal and private life choice by the people who want to practise it and it is not something that they wish to impose on the unwilling.

    " A few consider that those who are not practicing DD are the "weaker brother," something that maturity will take care of."

    Again, in several years of extensive association with DD groups, this is the only time I have ever read such a claim. If you can back this up with some kind of evidence, I will take it into consideration.

    "The fact that dd was introduced by nonbelievers or secular people are another very good reason for Christians not to follow this."

    Please back up this statement with clear evidence that this is the case.

    "I commend you for standing up for what you believe that DD represents. No man has the right to control a women's behavior or emotions by physical or emotional abuse."

    We are in complete agreement on this. However, since consensual DD is not 'abuse', the phrase doesn't apply.

    I have noticed from prior posting that defenders of DD go from one excuse from the other of why they are right."

    As I have noticed that opponents of DD go from one excuse to the other to 'prove' that THEY are right.

    "You are correct in God forgives without insisting on physical correction. Your statement that they are breaking the law holds true in many states. On that you are correct.
    The other thing is when they get put on the defensive they accuse the other person of finding out about DD through some perverted interest."

    I wouldn't say that such interest was "perverted", but it does amaze me that a person who has a pre-formed opinion that something is 'wrong'and offensive will then go to immense trouble to find and inflitrate private internet communities about that very subject, often under false pretences in order to avidly search through all the material contained thereon looking for isolated items that might prove they are 'right'. It reminds me of the critic of a television programme who writes to the broadcasting company to say that he or she found it offensive right from the beginning, only to follow that up with information that shows that, rather than turning the television off after those first few 'offensive' minutes, they watched the entire two hour production.

    "Do not personalize what they say just keep them in your prayer's (they need it)."

    I think that everyone deserves to be heard and everyone deserves the support of prayers.

    Caro

    — caro · 2007-03-20 08:56 · #

  143. Your "small" research doesn`t seem at all to bee so "small".You have indeed indulged yourself into this, maybee not as one who practise this physically, but.... When I wrote "a script"( my english may not bee that well because it`not my homelanguage), I mean those "rules" that those dd`ers sets on print. I think it is a kind of heresy and blasfemic as this lifestyle truelly is.
    All your arguments seem to me comes from a person in spite of have all this information you neceserally in a way contains,are more interested with verbosity, hairsplitting, quibbles. You don`t seems to contain real insight. That I think comes from your dishonesy of heart. I`ve read an article from a socalled "christian", even a pastor, from a cdd webside a while ago " leah kelley"`s web side who presumes to be a christian, also writing "romanctic" books, it is creepy, perverted and sick this article, like her website is,too.That "pastor" says what you say is not true, he tries to connect cdd with biblical scripture.So what you says about that is a lie. Maybee you should trie to find your information other places on web than just this sites of yours.It can bee a bit too much from on side of an opinion, you don`t see things clearly enough then. Dd includes also abuse of children, too,that`s horrible. I`ve seen on web that some non christians dd`ers don`t lay there hands on their children, but unfortunately many dd`ers does,in a very severe, perverted and wrong way, I`ll encourage you to do your researching in the future more honestly from heart and more free from your rooted thoughts.

    — Christian wife · 2007-03-26 02:55 · #


  144. The marriage service has its foundation on a biblical covenant, independent of written by man, marriage is a covenant made of God! When someone makes there own “rules” like dd`ers do it becomes hedonic or blasphemic, or at least mendacity. I do think that God in deed are displeased with this things and frowns, softly speaken., because the marriage is an image of His covenant with us. The word obey have been misapplied by many , also by some leaders in church or congregations. Therefor it is so importen that we don`t get so lazy that we fail to seek God by ourselves and read the bible ourselves. There are some really bad people out there, wanting to play with you to there own advantage, some one them are sick in their head and souls, too. The sad thing is that christians often are most easily fooled and used by wolfs in “sheepclothing”. As Christians we do have an obligation to be awake in our spirits. Dd is something attached to the flesh, not to the spirit. Christians are not in dept to the flesh, happily enough.You claim that God doesn`t really matter or care about this. I do think that he does, many americans have a falsh imagination of who and what God are.( they are not alone) . Very much is about that we get mercy from God to do right and good to others (as to ourselves) . In my opinion dd is diabolical. Sex: kids doesn`t hurt of the noise of their parents making love behind locked doors if they have a nice and good atmosphere, spirit at home. But the noise of their mother get spanked ( I begin to hate this word after been on those websites ) is something completely different. Even you should be able to understand that. Dd is a consequens of sin in peoples life.( there are many other consequences of sin then dd, but this is too) You claim to know so much about dd, I think you may be a bit “ brainwashed” because dd do concern children. Haven`t you been reading those dreadful OTK parents bloggings when you have been researching for so many years? . They should have been locked up in gail, telling about how they spank their children, asking pervertd people about advise. Dd includes spanking children up to nearly 20 years old. When you support dd you support this. I do believe that Christ have big grief in this, also do I. About solving problems in marriages there should be other solutions, and there are, of saving marriages, to not argue, quarrel and fight in front of the children, than to spank the wife or live in this type of relationship. And if you have a healthy relationship they survive some quarrels, too. I challenge and encourage you again to do some more “research”, not only on this bloggingcircles of dd`ers, but to get some more knowledge. To be good in quibbling and verbosity is simply not enough, even if you seems to believe that. I`m not at all impressed by that or the “good” relationships in dd. It is forgery and seduction.
    Read again "abuse in another name"at the top og this page, I`m totally agree in it`s contents.


    — christian wife · 2007-03-27 08:12 · #

  145. Diagnosing 'mental disorders' is NOT an exact science. That's what makes it dangerous sometimes. I worked with 'autistic' kids in a hospital setting, and the 'Psychiatrist' had intense psychotropic ordered for 'acting out behaviors.' WBR LeoP

    — Chemist · 2007-03-30 02:16 · #

  146. When women read about DD they become outraged for the women who allow men to manipulate them into living this life style. Women caring about the welfare of other women is a piece of the outrage it also is offensive to every women who has fought for herself or other women to make this a better world for women. It does not matter how one comes across a DD sites. It is how outraged and shocked we become that any women would think this is allright. If you are rich, poor, religous, not religous it is wrong living in this kind of arrangement. I do things my husband wants because I love him sometimes I do things that we argue over and vissa versa. What we have taught our children is in marriage we make mistakes are made we should forgive it is the Christian way. We have also taught them if you marry someone you should respect them enough to try not to do things that will hurt the relationship on occasions this will happen and you should forgive. You can even grow from mistakes if handled the right way. A right way not be ashamed of what you have done admitting you made a mistake and how you can attempt to make sure you learned from your mistake. A two way street is how marriage should work. This poem was written over a 100 years ago by a lady whose name was not included.

    Strive for your rights, O, Sister dear,
    And ever remember in your own sphere.
    You may aid the cause of all mankind,
    And be the true woman that God designed.

    The point is God made women special so we can contribute to the world not so we can be door mats.


    — Ella Bella · 2007-03-30 14:41 · #

  147. Christian Wife said:-

    "Your "small" research doesn`t seem at all to bee so "small".You have indeed indulged yourself into this, maybee not as one who practise this physically, but.... When I wrote "a script"( my english may not bee that well because it`not my homelanguage), I mean those "rules" that those dd`ers sets on print. I think it is a kind of heresy and blasfemic as this lifestyle truelly is.
    All your arguments seem to me comes from a person in spite of have all this information you neceserally in a way contains,are more interested with verbosity, hairsplitting, quibbles. You don`t seems to contain real insight. That I think comes from your dishonesy of heart. I`ve read an article from a socalled "christian", even a pastor, from a cdd webside a while ago " leah kelley"`s web side who presumes to be a christian, also writing "romanctic" books, it is creepy, perverted and sick this article, like her website is,too.That "pastor" says what you say is not true, he tries to connect cdd with biblical scripture.So what you says about that is a lie. Maybee you should trie to find your information other places on web than just this sites of yours.It can bee a bit too much from on side of an opinion, you don`t see things clearly enough then. Dd includes also abuse of children, too,that`s horrible. I`ve seen on web that some non christians dd`ers don`t lay there hands on their children, but unfortunately many dd`ers does,in a very severe, perverted and wrong way, I`ll encourage you to do your researching in the future more honestly from heart and more free from your rooted thoughts."

    -------------------------------------------------






    Hi Christian Wife,

    To begin with, I used the words, " a small research" in relation to a comment by someone else. For myself, my involvement in DD groups has been over a span of several years and many different forums and I would describe it as 'extensive'. Perhaps this does not give me "insight", but it does give me a much greater knowledge and experience of the subject than many people have. Secondly, my question about what you meant by a "script" was a genuine one, and was definitely not a criticism of your command of the English language. The majority of what you have posted here has been perfectly clear in meaning, but I did not understand that one comment. With regard to your words about my arguments here, I am not aware of any "verbosity", "hairsplitting", or "quibbles", since I have only addressed and responded directly to points that you yourself raised in the first place.

    To respond to your latest comments concerning the Leah Kelley website, ONCE AGAIN you have taken a piece of writing that gives the scriptural argument for wifely submission in marriage and ONCE AGAIN you have claimed that the author uses this as a justification for physical chastisement within marriage. All I can say of this is that you are again incorrect and that this article DOES NOT advocate DD but only the principle of wifely submission as addressed in Ephesians 5. This is not a "lie", or "dishonesty of heart", it is simply a fact. As for my duty to read in places other than DD sites, if I had not read many of the arguments against DD, I would not have been able to comment so extensively on their contents. I am familiar with many such arguments, but I am not convinced by them, because in my opinion, while they may each have their small virtues, they are largely based on hearsay, assumptions, a dearth of knowledge and a lack of any interest in gaining any real insight into the matter. I still do not agree that DD as a personal and consensual adult life choice is either heretical or blasphemous and I still don't think that you have come anywhere even close to demonstrating the truth of this oft-repeated claim.

    Finally, I would dispute your claim that people in DD relationships are any more or less abusive to their children than any other section of society. In the first place, like me, you have no way of knowing who spanks their children and who does not, and in the second place, it is an indisputable fact that no REAL DD site would allow discussion of abuse toward children, let alone encourage such a thing. In fact I was present on one site where posts were made on the subject and the perpetrator was reported to the site's provider whose policy is to refer such things to the authorities. This alone tells me that YOUR research has been vastly limited and inadequate and that you are trying to pass judgment on something that you know next to nothing about. Please have the courtesy and consideration to research this matter properly and with an open mind before you make such serious claims about your fellow human beings.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-04-06 08:22 · #

  148. Christian wife said:

    “The marriage service has its foundation on a biblical covenant, independent of written by man, marriage is a covenant made of God! When someone makes there own “rules” like dd`ers do it becomes hedonic or blasphemic, or at least mendacity. I do think that God in deed are displeased with this things and frowns, softly speaken., because the marriage is an image of His covenant with us. The word obey have been misapplied by many , also by some leaders in church or congregations. Therefor it is so importen that we don`t get so lazy that we fail to seek God by ourselves and read the bible ourselves. There are some really bad people out there, wanting to play with you to there own advantage, some one them are sick in their head and souls, too. The sad thing is that christians often are most easily fooled and used by wolfs in “sheepclothing”. As Christians we do have an obligation to be awake in our spirits. Dd is something attached to the flesh, not to the spirit. Christians are not in dept to the flesh, happily enough.You claim that God doesn`t really matter or care about this. I do think that he does, many americans have a falsh imagination of who and what God are.( they are not alone) . Very much is about that we get mercy from God to do right and good to others (as to ourselves) . In my opinion dd is diabolical. Sex: kids doesn`t hurt of the noise of their parents making love behind locked doors if they have a nice and good atmosphere, spirit at home. But the noise of their mother get spanked ( I begin to hate this word after been on those websites ) is something completely different. Even you should be able to understand that. Dd is a consequens of sin in peoples life.( there are many other consequences of sin then dd, but this is too) You claim to know so much about dd, I think you may be a bit “ brainwashed” because dd do concern children. Haven`t you been reading those dreadful OTK parents bloggings when you have been researching for so many years? . They should have been locked up in gail, telling about how they spank their children, asking pervertd people about advise. Dd includes spanking children up to nearly 20 years old. When you support dd you support this. I do believe that Christ have big grief in this, also do I. About solving problems in marriages there should be other solutions, and there are, of saving marriages, to not argue, quarrel and fight in front of the children, than to spank the wife or live in this type of relationship. And if you have a healthy relationship they survive some quarrels, too. I challenge and encourage you again to do some more “research”, not only on this bloggingcircles of dd`ers, but to get some more knowledge. To be good in quibbling and verbosity is simply not enough, even if you seems to believe that. I`m not at all impressed by that or the “good” relationships in dd. It is forgery and seduction.
    Read again "abuse in another name"at the top og this page, I`m totally agree in it`s contents.”

    ______________________________________________________________________


    I would certainly agree with you that MARRIAGE is based on a “covenant made by God”. However, the marriage SERVICE does not feature in this and was written entirely and exclusively by man as epitomized by the church, hundreds, if not thousands, of years AFTER the bible. In biblical times, there was no such formal arrangement, and marriage was simply an exclusive commitment between two people in the sight of God. As such, if your claim is correct, the marriage service is itself both hedonistic and blasphemous because it was set down by man and not by God in His scriptures. People in Christian DD relationships do not “make their own rules”, they simply interpret God’s word about wifely submission in the way that THEY believe it applies. Nor do they do this lightly, without consulting the scriptures or, in the unlikely event that a church leader would advocate such a thing, at the direction of anyone else.

    You may believe as you will that God is displeased about a loving and private consensual arrangement between a married Christian couple, but I believe that you are wrong. Certainly DD is partly “of the flesh”, but then so is sexual intercourse, which is also a part of marriage, and if God were “displeased” about THAT then there would be no children and no human race. Incidentally, at no point did I, “claim that God doesn`t really matter or care about this”. As far as I am concerned, God knows and cares about everything that His children do. However, I absolutely dispute the fact that He would condemn a loving and consensual act between two married adults in the way that some humans attempt to do.

    I strongly disagree that the sound or sight or their parents making physical love is something that any child should be subjected to and I KNOW that it is nonsense that anyone in a real DD relationship would allow their children to hear their mother being spanked. Yes there are dangerous people out there on the internet and in real life, but these people are deviants and perverts whose aim is to lure unwilling and vulnerable people into sexually abusive situations – a VASTLY different scenario from a private discussion group concerned with consensual DD within consenting adult committed relationships. It is arrant and unfounded nonsense to say that to support one is to support the other. Yes, I have seen the sites that condone the spanking of children – however these ARE NOT DD sites and you would be extremely hard put to find any DD forum or website that did not condemn them out of hand. Although I hold out little hope that you will see past your prejudices, (or perhaps YOU are “brainwashed”) I will repeat for the umpteenth time, that true domestic discipline is a consensual and private intimate arrangement between loving committed ADULTS and does NOT concern children. There is no requirement for you to practise or approve of this kind of relationship yourself, but there is also no reason why you should assume that you know the hearts and minds of people who DO practise it better than they do or God does.

    I have respect for the opening article in this discussion because it condemns several specific situations that I my DD acquaintances would not regard as acceptable or worthy of the description ‘domestic discipline’. However, these exceptional instances and are NOT representative of DD as it works for most couples.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-04-06 09:47 · #

  149. "When women read about DD they become outraged for the women who allow men to manipulate them into living this life style. Women caring about the welfare of other women is a piece of the outrage it also is offensive to every women who has fought for herself or other women to make this a better world for women. It does not matter how one comes across a DD sites. It is how outraged and shocked we become that any women would think this is allright. If you are rich, poor, religous, not religous it is wrong living in this kind of arrangement. I do things my husband wants because I love him sometimes I do things that we argue over and vissa versa. What we have taught our children is in marriage we make mistakes are made we should forgive it is the Christian way. We have also taught them if you marry someone you should respect them enough to try not to do things that will hurt the relationship on occasions this will happen and you should forgive. You can even grow from mistakes if handled the right way. A right way not be ashamed of what you have done admitting you made a mistake and how you can attempt to make sure you learned from your mistake. A two way street is how marriage should work. This poem was written over a 100 years ago by a lady whose name was not included.
    Strive for your rights, O, Sister dear,
    And ever remember in your own sphere.
    You may aid the cause of all mankind,
    And be the true woman that God designed.
    The point is God made women special so we can contribute to the world not so we can be door mats."
    ________________________________________________________________________

    Hi Ella Bella,

    How do you know that men “manipulate” women into living this way? Are not consenting adult women who CHOOSE this way of life entitled to the same freedom of choice as you or any other woman? What price “freedom” and the fight for a “better world” if it only extends to practises and beliefs with which people like you agree? Would you expect someone to invade the sanctity of your marital bedroom to tell you the ‘proper’ and ‘acceptable’ way to have sexual intercourse? Personally, I doubt it very much. Why then do you feel that you have the right to dictate another couple's private and intimate life and mske these choices for them? You quote from a poem that says this:-

    “Strive for your rights, O, Sister dear,
    And ever remember in your own sphere.
    You may aid the cause of all mankind,
    And be the true woman that God designed.”

    And yet you want to remove the “rights” of a whole section of society, female and male, simply because these people want to live in a way that would not suit you. If you wish to believe that the free choice to live in the way that they WANT to live makes an adult woman into a “doormat” then I cannot change your mind, but I have to say that I find your statements contradictory and evocative of conveniently double standards. With regard to your description of your interaction with your husband, I would say that with the exception of the fact that a DD couple SOMETIMES resolves things in a different way from you, the way in which you deal with things is almost identical to the way in which a DD couple would.

    You claim that it is not relevant, “how one comes across DD sites”?. In my opinion however, it is crucially relevant to the subject. Over and over again in this thread the claim has been made that DD sites are dangerous because they ‘promote’ the practise. However the true fact of the matter is that they “promote” nothing because one has not only to search out such a site (and make no mistake - you have to know what the term 'DD' means BEFORE you begin your search) – a difficult job in most cases because many are excluded deliberately from all search engines - but also to register with most before one can even read the posts thereon. My point is that therefore you cannot find or participate in a DD site unless you specifically search for one and that the practise of DD only becomes a public concern when people ‘advertise’ it on a site like this.

    Overall my point is that you cannot on the one hand advocate freedom of choice and equality for a “better world" and on the other, deny people the choice to lead their PRIVATE and intimate lives in the way that they wish simply because you do not agree with their choices.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-04-06 10:43 · #

  150. "How does it come to that you have the knowledge of that it`s only a small minority that are forced to this lifestyle, both women and men? I have seen a new world on internet about dd, that I didn`t know existed, before, and has done a small researche."

    Christian Wife says:
    I`ve been on internet for this subject for about 4 or 5 months, on and off. rather openminded because I like to see the view from many sides. I couldn`t find it to fit with God`s will though.I am wondering, thinking of why especially some women are attracted to this and some of hem make their husbands to go into this lifestyle.

    Caro:In so far as ANYONE (including you) can be said to "know" definitely, I know it because, contrary to having done a "small research" on the subject, I have been a member at a variety of DD groups for some years. In my case, my interest began as research, but I have been constantly impressed by the level of commitment, mutual respect and loving care that is present in most of these relationships and I am proud to have friends who practise this lifestyle.

    Cristian wife: Hm, you won`t say, wasted your prescious time for so many years!I see your worshipping of this lifestyle but do you have friends of these couples in privacy, I ask you, have you seen it in their homes or just by mailing?

    Caro: c..w says:" As a Christian I think it is blasphemic to make a new arrangement in script in marriage, added to that one you had when you are married."
    Caro says.
    I'm sorry but I don't know what you mean by a "script". If you mean the marriage service, which is not in any case biblical but written by man, those of us who are older were married at a time when "obey" was a part of the standard marriage service and was therefore included in the "script ". These days it is not a part of the service, but many couples chose to include it anyway. If you mean that the practise of DD should not be added into an extant marriage, what of those couples who practise it from the start? Finally, if you mean that it should not be practised because it is not a scripturally endorsed part of marriage, why doesn't that apply to the many other things that people do that aren't specifically endorsed by the bible?"

    Chr. wife says:
    with "script" I mean of course their "contract" with the rules about how and when she shall be spanked, you knew that, didn`t you?

    Correction to Caro: Marriage service service is not made by men even when they don`t marry in church, it is a covenant from God, it is holy, but you don`t seem to have that knowlwdge,do you?
    When it comes to Lori and Paul Byerli`s article you use a tactic I`ve seen you are using quite often, to render suspect, this are fine people, but of course they haven`t been on this websites of yours for many years, like you have been done. May bee that becomes of that they have better things to do? It was a release to read something reasonible for once.I also see that both dd and cdd is rather pornographic an unmodest, i was a bit shocked of the cdd site, frankly. The stories made me sick,cdd mostly.And sad.
    I,chr. wife, are also conserned about the men in dd, as a mother of 3 sons and 1 daugther, it seems to me that dd not to be a solution for men to find their own heart, and that is importent, isn`t it?

    "When I says that I mean priorly it to become to christians, not secular people. Though I think it is sad and unjustifiable to the children, for both christians and secular families, and very wrong
    When it comes to Christians ; All that you can`t be open with displeases the Lord, nothing shall be hidden."

    Caro says:
    Unfortunately, you cannot have it both ways. Either DD should be kept private and away from the eyes of the children, because, like sex, it is an intimate and personal transaction between two adults, or we should be completely open and public about both DD and every aspect of our intimate lives, lest we offend the Lord by hiding something. Surely this is a case for simple common sense and a little less literal interpretation! You cannot really believe that God requires us to reveal the intimate details of our sex lives to all and sundry including our children!

    Caro this is hairsplitting!

    Chr. wife says:
    "My reply about God means the children":
    I\m a bit worried about my answer here because some chr.are listening to werewolves like the Pearls, Ted Tripp,Roy Lessin and others, there are many jerks out there!It is tragic that so many parents listen to falsh leaders instead of their own hearts, because God laid the children in the parents hands, not in the hands of torturists and werevolves.


    Those who practice it, extol DD because:
    • they believe it to be in obedience to God's Word."

    Caro says:
    This is a common misconception advocated by opponents of DD. In the first place DD is a personal and private lifestyle choice and practioners are fully aware that it would not work for everyone. In the second, as I said in an earlier post, no Christian practioner of DD that I have encountered has ever suggested that DD is 'biblical'.

    "• they see it as a part of God's plan for protection of women, and the exercise of authority over her."

    Again Lori and Paul are misinformed. Some Christian DD couples see WIFELY SUBMISSION as a part of God's plan, but it is only opponents of DD who claim that this extends to specifics like DD. Ask any Christian couple who practises DD and they will tell you that, like many other more common marital transactions, DD is neither condemned nor advocated in the scriptures.

    "• they see it as a way of motivating a woman to change/grow."

    It does seem to work in this positive way for many couples.

    "• it helps women to not seek control or inappropriate leadership, and teaches submission."

    This is something I have never encountered in my DD group 'travels'. It seems to me that the majority of women in DD relationships have made a free choice about where they want to be WITHIN their particular relationship, but that the DD regime does not extend to the workplace or what they do outside the home. In fact there seem to be an unusually high proprotion of DD wives/partners in high level positions in responsible professionslike medicine, law and education.

    Christian Wife says:

    Have you red this article really, Caro ?If you have how do you explaine this; The author ( a pastor?)of the referenced article says: "In the marriage relationship there is a past practise that I am sure you must have heard of which is called accountabilityor proactive lovemodel of marriage, Today it is quite controversial and consists of a loving christian husband using his authority and headship in a marriage in a very proactive and nonpassive
    way ( he is very slippery too,this eel) -to help his wife to grow and mature spiritually. She is expected to submit and he is to love and protect her-both following the roles that Bible Believing Chr. always agree upon.
    "What makes the model unique in the current times is that the husband in order to love his wife , has decided to use whatmight be called " god mirroring" or practical godliness( what a jerk!)- " in other words , a following of Gods methods of how He uses authority and how God expects and tells mere humans to carry out their delegant authority. " This leads to physical discipline to "lovingly" keep the wife accoutable to her master`s God given authority...and so on...a huge article, a mess, crap.

    My dear Caro, either are you blind, or a lier and a cheater. Your words are not thrustworthy, I have read the whole filthy, damned article today, and i encourage other readers here to read this crap just to see that Caro says simply not is true!

    Caro: My own computer don`t work, and someone is waiting to come to this one, I have to stop writing.I haven`t had the time to read your last postings accurate, but i saw the most. I am coming back to this.

    — christian wife · 2007-04-08 11:51 · #

  151. Christian Wife,

    I had assumed that you and I had read the SAME article on Leah Kelly's website because the one that I read was also written by a Pastor and was on the subject of his interpretation of roles in marriage as referenced in Ephesians 5. However, although in this piece of writing, he drew the conclusion that wives should submit to their husbands, he didn't touch on the subject of physical discipline at all, so I think it is possible that we are speaking of a different article altogether. I know that Leah Kelley has several websites and blogs, so it wouldn't be difficult to make this mistake. Without knowing whether I have read the article to which you refer, I cannot really comment on it, but chances are that, if he describes a husband as his wife's "Master", this would be closer to a BDSM Master/slave relationship and not acceptable to people in DD relationships who set great store on the principles of mutual respect and equality of worth. Obviously, not everything that is written with the label 'DD', is representative of majority opinion.

    I have 'real life' friendships with a number of couples whom I met originally through internet DD forums and they have visited my home as I have visited theirs. We have spoken a little about the subject in general terms, just as we have spoken as friends do, about many and varied other things, but I have not SEEN or HEARD them practise DD because this is a private arrangement between husband and wife and is for their eyes alone. I don't see the comparison between privacy in the practise of DD and sexual acts as "hair-splitting" because to me and the couples concerned both are equally intimate and private things. Most couples don't think it appropriate or right to discuss their sex lives with their children and friends so why would they find it acceptable to freely discuss something equally intimate like DD?

    I'm not sure either exactly what it is that attracts people to this way of life, but, provided that neither spouse is coerced into it, that both feel that it benefits the relationship and makes them closer, and that it is kept private (except where it is discussed with like minded adults in a place like a closed DD forum) and it is not forced on children or other people, which we are all agreed is wrong, then surely it is their decision to make. This is why I liken it to sex within marriage - different couples enjoy and benefit from different things and each couple gets to decide unilaterally what works best for them.

    I explained in one of my previous posts that my question about marriage "scripts" was a genuine one and not a criticism of your use of English. It was not clear that you referred to mutually agreed two way "contract" that a SOME (by no means all) DD couples put into writing, because you spoke of changes to the original "marriage script", which is why I thought that you might be referring to the marriage ceremony and vows. I have already said that I AGREE ENTIRELY that marriage is a covenant made by God, but I repeat that this loving and exclusive commitment between two people in the sight of God, or holy covenant, has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the pretty ceremony (or script) written by man and enforced by the church, or a piece of paper provided by the state. In any case, nothing in a consensual DD arrangement, whether written or verbal, departs from even the most basic marriage "script", since, for most couples, it enhances their loving connection and works in favour of the tenants of God's marriage covenant. As for the children of a DD couple, I will again explain that DD is a private and intimate consensual arrangement between an adult couple, just like sexual intercourse, and while the children may see whatever healthy indirect benefit it brings to the relationship, such as loving and mutually respectful interaction between parents, it is doubtful that this will result in their indoctrination or the loss of their own freedom or ability to choose for themselves any more than your children will be unable to make their own choices about their beliefs because you have brought them up as Christians.

    With regard to Lori and Paul Bayerling, I haven't said that they are 'suspect' or dishonest, although I do believe them to be dangerously prideful and arrogant in many areas, nor have I said that every word that they say is wrong or that every word written in favour of DD is correct. I simply feel that in their article they set out a number of supposed 'arguments' against DD in list form and then attempt to justify each by claiming or assuming that "DDers believe this, or that", when they don't know that these things are true and haven't troubled to ASK the people of whom they make these claims. I don't doubt for a moment that they truly believe what they say, but I find their arguments unconvincing because they have no substance and are based almost entirely on assumption and hearsay. It is also indisputably true that they are in the habit of removing people who speak in favour of DD from their forums, usually on the grounds that their arguments are not "scriptural". In response to this approach, a friend of mine sent them a complete retraction of their article based entirely on scripture (and no, I did not agree with everything he said) which they refused to allow to be posted and which resulted in his removal from the site on some other pretext. Call it what you will, but they are either not prepared, or not able, to defend their claims against even the smallest opposition, and they seem very afraid of the possibility that people might want to make up their own minds about this subject. You have only to look at the discussions on their site to see this for yourself. Actually I find it rather ironical that you accuse me of using what you describe as, "a tactic I’ve seen you are using quite often, to render suspect" in view of the fact that you have to date during the course of our correspondence called me, among other things, "dishonest", "a liar", "a cheat", "blind" and "stupid" simply because my opinions are different from yours. I am satisfied that I have not treated you with a similar disrespect and that I have genuinely tried to answer your concerns rather than dismissing them in the way that you have done with mine.

    Concerning the 'pornographic' and 'immodest' aspects of DD sites, well I would agree that many of them have pictures containing nudity although it is NON DD spanking sites that abound in these. It is also true that there are many discussions and stories of an intimate nature, probably because, like Lori and Paul's site, where they discuss all manner of sexual practises in quite graphic detail, they are adult forums about intimate relationships. However, each of the sites to which I belong is closed off from all public, search engines and offers a clear and precise warning as to its adult (18 years plus) and explicit content to newcomers proposing to join, and each of them offers the option to go elsewhere in the event that newcomers might be offended by this content. Therefore my answer to your comment that. you, "also see that both dd and cdd is rather pornographic an unmodest, i was a bit shocked of the cdd site, frankly. The stories made me sick,cdd mostly.And sad.", would be to suggest that you heed the warnings you are given and refrain from entering and reading a site that makes you feel this way. That way, your sensibilities won't be offended and the people who have chosen to live in this way will have somewhere safe and private to discuss their life choices without upsetting other people.

    — Caro · 2007-04-09 23:20 · #

  152. What you says about scriptures in the Bible shows a lack of knowledge though you pretend too know. lets take the proverb10:13b

    Quote;Caro says:
    I think their arguments lack significant scriptural support, including the fact It is nothing else but rude andthat a lot of the discipline scriptures are either not gender specific, or speak of the discipline of men (Proverbs 10:13b)."

    You (or is this from the the article?) are wrong when you say that the mention of physical discipline in the bible is confined to children. 'A rod for the back of fools' is just one of many exceptions to this, but,as you say, there is no mention of the physical discipline of wives. This is why Christian DD couples do not waste time trying to prove or validate it 'scripturally'. However, the fact that it is NOT mentioned does not automatically INVALIDATE it, unless the same philosophy applies to the thousand and one other things that we do in our everyday lives that are not specifically mentioned or described in every detail in the bible.

    My , CW answering:
    Why should this scripture concern women at all, I have to ask. There are so many fools among men, or lets say that we all acts foolish sometimes ( may bee often!)Does that mean that we shall go on beginning to hit each other with a stick? That would be absurd! I really don`t hope you mean so, What kind of a sosciety wold that be to live in! Is this what you want? (And sometimes "the rod" means not physically pain that this pastor,- writing Dom. D. in a christian marriage - autor unknown,- says it always means, because it don`t.)
    We are being chaztenised in many different ways as Christians, that is importent to know. So the rod accorded to children does also not always mean physically. And I think in The New Testament accorded to adults it means never physically.
    Is this so strange to imagine or understand? So why you, caro talk about lack signifant scriptural support of the marriage bed authors,shows even more the lack of your own knowlwdge, I`m afraid. Either don`t it seems that you have a genuin interests in the bible, really, even you often tells firmly to others that this or that is wrong accorded to the bible.I don`t pretend to know everything or are perfect in any ways, but i love Jesus and are encouraged to find out and have a genuin interests in the truth!

    I also wonder about what you mean by this;
    "but it does amaze me that a person who has a pre-formed opinion that something is 'wrong'and offensive will then go to immense trouble to find and inflitrate private internet communities about that very subject, often under false pretences in order to avidly search through all the material contained thereon looking for isolated items that might prove they are 'right'. It reminds me of the critic of a television programme who writes to the broadcasting company to say that he or she found it offensive right from the beginning, only to follow that up with information that shows that, rather than turning the television off after those first few 'offensive' minutes, they watched the entire two hour production.

    What do you mean about infiltrate private intern. commun.?
    Do you mean me? Because I`ve never been there, always by open topics like this, never logged myself in anywhere. I think you are a bit foulish and shameless in your accusation,especially when it have not anything with reality and aren`t a bit true!

    If you really were convinced in the justice and righteousness in this practise, wouldn`t you then be a less more frantic about defending it?

    Quote, caro says:

    You may believe as you will that God is displeased about a loving and private consensual arrangement between a married Christian couple, but I believe that you are wrong.
    CW:
    I belive i have right.
    Dd is far behind and out of Gods prinsiples as a n imagine of his covenant and relation to us. It is not that inicent that you are trying to whitewash it to be. Like that rubber factorybelt supplied with a hockestick that marjorie told about. If you have a healthy mind you react with hideous and disgust and anger. This story is not about a "well deserved spanking" as someone calls it,but is perverted and rude, and sick.
    I should like to see how this cowards react if a real man coomes to ask them to fight, man to man. Pie in their trouses, i believe. God has other solutions to men and women because he really cares, and God are a zealous God!
    Men should find their own wild heart,with real challenges woman should be encouraged to find and show their beauty.
    John Eldredge, writer of "Wild at heart".

    They will never find it in this way, and more serious; it destroys this things is in man and are doing the opposite of Gods will.

    — christian wife · 2007-04-10 02:36 · #


  153. I am not an expert on the bibal howwever I am a proponent of women's rights. I also surf the net when I am bored. I am sure Seebach has many people who search his site that happen to come across his inital posting on DD. Why do you accuse every person of being a pervert who has posted an opinion against DD? I agree in freedom of choice as long as it does not take away another person's freedom of choice. It is scary territory that you ladies are living. What if you decided you no longer wanted to live this life?

    — Ella Bella · 2007-04-10 03:15 · #

  154. QUOTE, Caro says:
    To respond to your latest comments concerning the Leah Kelley website, ONCE AGAIN you have taken a piece of writing that gives the scriptural argument for wifely submission in marriage and ONCE AGAIN you have claimed that the author uses this as a justification "for physical chastisement within marriage. All I can say of this is that you are again incorrect and that this article DOES NOT advocate DD but only the principle of wifely submission as addressed in Ephesians 5.

    This assertion of you is extremely untruthful, Caro,
    look at this article`s first sentences, word for word,as I write above:-(all in parenthesis are comments from me)-
    "In the marriage relationship there is a past practise that I am sure you must have heard of which is called accountability or proactive lovemodel of marriage, Today it is quite controversial and consists of a loving christian husband using his authority and headship in a marriage in a very proactive and nonpassive
    way -to help his wife to grow and mature spiritually.( nice words, but not convincing, here we have grow and mature again) She is expected to submit and he is to love and protect her-both following the roles that Bible Believing Chr. always agree upon. ( are they?)
    "What makes the model unique in the current times is that the husband in order to love his wife , has decided to use whatmight be called " god mirroring"( what gives him the right to say that this is god-mirroring!) or practical godliness " in other words , a following of Gods(?) methods of how He uses authority and how God expects
    ( frankly, Caro, doesn`t he give the picture that God ""tells "the mere humans" to carry out what he says is "delegant authority" by spanking?)and tells mere humans to carry out their delegant authority. " This leads to physical discipline (isn`t that what he says here?) to "lovingly" keep the wife accoutable to her master`s God given authority

    Caro says:
    All I can say of this is that you are again incorrect and that this article DOES NOT advocate DD but only the principle of wifely submission as addressed in Ephesians 5.

    How can you be saying that, can`t you read?
    He says by this in other words, that if you are a responsibel husband and a true believer, this is the utmost will from God ( which is not right),- according to biblical submissing, "this leads to physical d", he continues.
    Isn`t that what he says here?
    The rest of the article suddenly support that.It will be to much work for me to make all tgis available to the readers here, I `ve printed it out 8 sights or something. He promote BDSM , too.
    The"fact id that many pastors are involved with this way of life, including myself, which only goes toshow that there are some pastors "that are still reading and "obeying all of Gods word". ( Here he claims that they are obeying all of Gods word by practise this, in that he says that other chr. that don`t do so, are not obeying)-"It is hard to determine just how common this lifestyle is, given the fear of being laughed at or judged if others find out that this is your conviction. So should we hide the fact that "we obey" the "entire bible" in order to avoid ridicule+ I believe we should not hide this fact but rathet tell everyone( says he being anonymous, "the unknown author") how to have a great Biblical marriage, and be pleasing the fathet at the same time. ( Now I wonder what father he has, is it God or is it the devil)
    That is the reason we developed this Yahoo group" Master and Slave for Jesus" (!!), so we can be the "tip of the sword", bringing back people Christians to the way the lord has designed His children to live( now I begin tO feel sorry for him, this "pastor")I have to stop for the moment, someone else wants this computer.


    — christian Wife · 2007-04-10 05:57 · #

  155. Christian Wife,

    I do not doubt your knowledge of the bible or commitment to Christianity in any way and I commend your determination to seek out the truth. However, all we have here is a declaration of how YOU see the truth of the bible and which things YOU choose to interpret literally and which you you do not. Whether you want to believe it or not, I too have read these scripture,s and MY heart leads me in a different way from yours. I raised the question of Proverbs 10:13b solely because YOU insisted in an earlier post that the bible only mentions physical chastisement in relation to male children. While these verses may have only symbolic meaning in TODAY'S culture the fact remains that they disprove your claim. With regard to the New Testament, no matter how often you keep repeating your views, it simply doesn't mention the subject at all one way or the other let alone tell anybody "firmly" or otherwise that it is wrong. And no, I don't believe that we should all descend into a state of violent anarchy and start fighting each other in the streets, but then so far that hasn't happened despite the fact that there are couples who practise DD.

    "but it does amaze me that a person who has a pre-formed opinion that something is 'wrong'and offensive will then go to immense trouble to find and inflitrate private internet communities about that very subject, often under false pretences in order to avidly search through all the material contained thereon looking for isolated items that might prove they are 'right'. It reminds me of the critic of a television programme who writes to the broadcasting company to say that he or she found it offensive right from the beginning, only to follow that up with information that shows that, rather than turning the television off after those first few 'offensive' minutes, they watched the entire two hour production."

    My comments here were in response to something that you said, but were not directed at you. They were in reference to people I have encountered who purport to be against DD but who then seek out and involve themselves deeply and almose voyeuristically in online DD groups for what seems to be unnecessarily long periods of time using false and involved cover stories in order to gain the confidence of other members. I have no reason whatever to think that you are such a person.

    I don't feel that it is at all "frantic" to respond logically to what I believe are misconceptions and inaccurancies posted by other people. After all isn't that exactly what you yourself are doing when you reply to me?

    Marjorie referred to an incident posted on a private forum by the supposed "victim" of this abuse. The lady in question, who is one of my real life acquaintances, wasn't physically or emotionally damaged by this experience, is very much in love with her husband, as he is with her, their DD is fully consensual and it was their private decision to pursue it. She is an intelligent, attractive and articluate woman with a mind of her own and a career in her own right and is as far away from a doormat as anyone could be. My point is that I'm not trying to "whitewash" anything. You do not have to agree with or condone it and you do not have to want it for yourself, but it is still every person's right to choose to live their private lives in whatever way they feel is best for themt. If you are disgusted by it and find it perverted and rude then you can make the conscious decision not to read about it just as you might choose not to look at pornography.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-04-10 21:15 · #

  156. Hi Ella Bella,

    I have explained already to Christian Wife that I don't feel that everyone who takes a detached intellectual interest in DD or anything else is a pervert and I have certainly never accused anyone who has posted an argument against DD on this thread of being a "pervert". In fact I think it is healthy to keep an open mind and to explore different concepts and learn how other people live. Most people can do this and then move on if they don't like what they read. However, I have encountered a SMALL PROPORTION of people whose interest seems to extend beyond this and who seem to take an overly active interest in seeking out details and sensationlising anything that they consider to be a bit 'juicy'. This strikes me as slightly voyeuristic and I suspect that their motives are not as pure as they claim.

    DD is in fact, a free and entirely consensual choice made by made by individual couples about their own private lives. Neither partner is denied his or her freedom of choice because the decision is mutual and since the choice is theirs alone, it has no bearing on anyone else's rights. Consensuality is the line between DD and abuse and, although there are undoubtedly people who do try to force the issue without consent on both sides (just as there are in any other life issue) you will find that this is not acceptable to the DD community as a whole. Since DD is adopteded strictly by mutual consent, if one partner withdrew that consent, it would simply cease. That is why I don't feel that it conflicts with the women's rights movement or with other human rights issues.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-04-10 21:21 · #

  157. "QUOTE, Caro says:
    To respond to your latest comments concerning the Leah Kelley website, ONCE AGAIN you have taken a piece of writing that gives the scriptural argument for wifely submission in marriage and ONCE AGAIN you have claimed that the author uses this as a justification "for physical chastisement within marriage. All I can say of this is that you are again incorrect and that this article DOES NOT advocate DD but only the principle of wifely submission as addressed in Ephesians 5.

    This assertion of you is extremely untruthful, Caro,
    look at this article`s first sentences, word for word,as I write above:-(all in parenthesis are comments from me)-
    "In the marriage relationship there is a past practise that I am sure you must have heard of which is called accountability or proactive lovemodel of marriage, Today it is quite controversial and consists of a loving christian husband using his authority and headship in a marriage in a very proactive and nonpassive
    way -to help his wife to grow and mature spiritually.( nice words, but not convincing, here we have grow and mature again) She is expected to submit and he is to love and protect her-both following the roles that Bible Believing Chr. always agree upon. ( are they?)
    "What makes the model unique in the current times is that the husband in order to love his wife , has decided to use whatmight be called " god mirroring"( what gives him the right to say that this is god-mirroring!) or practical godliness " in other words , a following of Gods(?) methods of how He uses authority and how God expects
    ( frankly, Caro, doesn`t he give the picture that God ""tells "the mere humans" to carry out what he says is "delegant authority" by spanking?)and tells mere humans to carry out their delegant authority. " This leads to physical discipline (isn`t that what he says here?) to "lovingly" keep the wife accoutable to her master`s God given authority

    I have already dealt with all of this in an earlier post. It seems that you and I were reading articles on different Leah Kelly websites. Most of what you quote from THIS article would not be acceptable to the DD community at all.

    Caro says:
    All I can say of this is that you are again incorrect and that this article DOES NOT advocate DD but only the principle of wifely submission as addressed in Ephesians 5.

    How can you be saying that, can`t you read?
    He says by this in other words, that if you are a responsibel husband and a true believer, this is the utmost will from God ( which is not right),- according to biblical submissing, "this leads to physical d", he continues.
    Isn`t that what he says here?
    The rest of the article suddenly support that.It will be to much work for me to make all tgis available to the readers here, I `ve printed it out 8 sights or something. He promote BDSM , too.
    The"fact id that many pastors are involved with this way of life, including myself, which only goes toshow that there are some pastors "that are still reading and "obeying all of Gods word". ( Here he claims that they are obeying all of Gods word by practise this, in that he says that other chr. that don`t do so, are not obeying)-"It is hard to determine just how common this lifestyle is, given the fear of being laughed at or judged if others find out that this is your conviction. So should we hide the fact that "we obey" the "entire bible" in order to avoid ridicule+ I believe we should not hide this fact but rathet tell everyone( says he being anonymous, "the unknown author") how to have a great Biblical marriage, and be pleasing the fathet at the same time. ( Now I wonder what father he has, is it God or is it the devil)"
    _____________________________________________________________________________________________

    I have already dealt with all of this in an earlier post. It seems that you and I were reading articles on different Leah Kelly websites. Most of what you quote from THIS article would not be acceptable to the DD community at all because it is non consensual and not agreed by both partners.

    ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


    That is the reason we developed this Yahoo group" Master and Slave for Jesus" (!!), so we can be the "tip of the sword", bringing back people Christians to the way the lord has designed His children to live( now I begin tO feel sorry for him, this "pastor")I have to stop for the moment, someone else wants this computer.

    Master/slave relationships are entirely diiferent from DD relationships in that they involve something called Total Power Exchange which gives the man or 'Master' total and absolute power over the woman. This DOES NOT happen in a domtestic discipline relationship and the only similarity between the two lifestyles is that Master/slave relationships are also consensually agreed. You will find that mutual respect and decision sharing is an essential factor of DD and that most people in DD relationships disagree strongly with the concept that a man should have autonomous power over his partner.

    Caro


    — Caro · 2007-04-10 21:24 · #

  158. About submitting accorded to the Bible: it is something that God says to us that we shall do voluntarily, like we are coming to the Lord voluntarily. Cddpromoters says maybee that the wife in such a relationship voluntarily is submitting in that way. But there is a huge use of manipulation to get people to start with this, it seems, both in non chr. dd and cdd, both for women to get into this and for some men to start with this. As many people want you to do the thing they are holding on to , for justifying their own way of living, also in this case.Cdd is right about submitting of every area in the sosciety,wife/ husband, master/slave in the biblical times,children to parents , in work and so on, but they gives the wrong picture of how to do it, and on false premises.
    That gives a false picture of submitting based on a false picture of God.
    Read the stories in the Bible about how Jesus remained to the women around Him, and you see his repect and gentleness and love.
    And just to make something very clear; this is not topic pro-dd, it started on he overheading" abuse in another name": as a criticism to dd.
    I will come with some scriptures related to submitting later on.
    Submitting is a good and rightous way of living, making good fruits in life, but cdd is a failure.

    — christian Wife. · 2007-04-11 14:07 · #

  159. Hi again Christian Wife,

    Firstly, debate about the meaning of "submission" as defined in Ephesians 5 is by no means confined to advocates of DD. Some Christians believe that the whole chapter refers to the principle of MUTUAL submission and others believe that mutual submission in Christians is advocated in one part and wifely submission specifically in another. Go to any non DD Christian forum and you will see this for yourself.

    Secondly, one of the most basic principles of DD is that it must be fully consensual and wanted by both partners: in other words completely voluntary. Go to any DD site, Christian or otherwise, and you will see that non consensual (supposed) DD is condemned as abuse.

    Thirdly, CDD bears absolutely no resemblance whatever to 'Total Power exchange', Master/slave relationships, biblical or otherwise, and is tailored to effect mutally desired change within SPECIFIC areas of an adult intimate relationship ONLY. Finally, as you yourself pointed out indirectly when referring to the verses about 'a rod for the back of a fool', there is such a thing as TOUGH love and this is what DD is.

    I never ast any point said that the topic was pro-DD. I simply said that I had respect for whar Seebach says because he condemns specific instances which advocates of DD, oncluding me, would also condemn.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-04-11 22:50 · #

  160. Christian Wife,

    Just to clarify one or two things in my previous post, which I wrote in a hurry just before I left for work.

    In your posts, I see a very great deal telling me, "What God says", "what God wants" and what "the bible says". I would like to say that as a fully competent and averagely intelligent Christian adult of sound and independent mind, I am perfectly capable of reading the bible and deciding for myself what God says and wants. However, what I would not presume to do is to instruct someone else that they must go against their own hearts and read and interpret the bible in exactly the same way as I. This to me would be prideful and arrogant in the extreme, and therefore in direct conflict with MY VIEW of charitable Christian behaviour and MY VIEW of "what God says". A perfect example of this is the way in which you purport to know the "one true way" about submission in the bible. This has been, and still is, a matter of constant and varied debate between Christians of all beliefs. How is it then that YOUR knowledge of God and YOUR opinion is so much more infallible and correct than that of anyone else that everyone else must follow suit?

    Similarly, I would not constantly repeat the same string of completely unsubstantiated assumptions about other people's motives, thoughts, intentions, successes and failures when I have absolutley NO knowledge of these things. I base my opinions here on what I have learned through listening, talking, reading and meeting people in the domestic discipline lifestyle over several years. You base yours on a few weeks of reading on a small number of sites, some of which are not DD sites at all. (Example: You refer to a site called, " Master and Slave for Jesus" and, if you had the slightest comprehension of the concept of DD, you would know that Master/slave is NOTHING to do with DD) Or maybe I am wrong and you take your cue from people like the self appointed 'ministers' Lori and Paul Bayerling, who display a similar lack of knowledge of what DD is about and a similar lack of humility when laying down the gospel according to them.

    At different points in this conversation you have suggested that I cannot read or am stupid because I have disagreed with what I believe to be your completely inaccurate assessment of DD. Although I have already explained the whole thing several times over it is clear that YOU have understood nothing, so please let me spell it out for you in simple and starightfoward terms:-


    1. Domestic discipline is something which is decided on and agreed to in entirety by two adult and equal people in an intimate relationship. If it is NOT consensually and fully agreed and is imposed on an unwillinging wife by her husband, it IS NOT DD - it is abuse. If a couple starts DD and it doesn'r work out or one partner changes his/her mind IT CEASES BECAUSE IT IS NO LONGER CONSENSUAL. Read any DD group and learn the truth of this.

    2. Domestic Discipline is NOT a matter of total and absolute control and subversion by one partner over the other in all areas of life. It is introduced and used as a method of loving control and support in particular areas in which BOTH partners want to see change. In all other areas of life the balance of power remains equal and decisions are made jointly or by EITHER partner. It also does not mean that a wife cannot be well educated, ambitious or pursue a career of her own with her husband's full support.

    3. Not ALL couples use spanking or 'punishments' in DD, but when they do this is with the FULL CONSENT of both partners. If there is not full consent, it is abuse, Read the sites and see for yourself.

    4, DD has nothing at all to do with the children of the family, the neighbours, friends or relatives. It is a private arrangement between two adult intimate partners that is kept from others for the sake of discretion in exactly the way that sexual matters are kept private and intimate. This is not a case of hiding something one is ashamed of or cannot be open about, but a healthy case of preservation of privacy. This is not 'hair-splitting' it is just plain social convention and normal common sense.

    5. DD is not a NEW thing. It has happened since the beginning of documented time. The only difference is that lately people have found a new place to discuss it with others of like mind.

    6. People in DD relationships do not beat, maim, humiliate, or damage each other either physically or emotionally. They treat each other with as much respect and love as any other couple and in many cases probably with a great deal more. Some of them spank. Others do not.

    7. SOME people in DD relationships base the concept on the idea of wifely submission in the bible, others do not. YOU may not read those verses in that way, but many people DO.

    8. DD to the people who practise it is LOVING and SUPPORTIVE way to change and develop the closeness and connection within a relationship. As such they do not regard it as cruel, humiliating, divisive or destructive.

    9. If DD works for the partipants, it makes them happy, it affects or involves no-one else, and it removes no-one's freedom of choice, it is a SUCCESS and not a "failure".

    10. No TRUE Christian advocate of DD (Master/slave is NOT DD), pretends for one moment that it is biblical for a man to spank his wife. Simply put - THE BIBLE DOES NOT SAY A MAN SHOULD SPANK HIS WIFE. We are all in total and absolute agreement with this - so no argument for you there. However there is no getting away from the fact that the bible doesn't forbid or discourage anything which is a loving and mutually respectful act between a married couple either. Although YOU don't see DD in this light, that is how people in DD see it.

    11. DD CAN be partly sexual because it occurs between two loving people in an intimate commited relationship. Nothing against THAT in the bible either.

    12, Conversations and stories on DD sites are sometimes explicit BECAUSE DD is enacted within committed adult relationships. The conversations are intended for the people who practise or support the lifestyle. Like DD they are not for everyone. If you find them, sickening, disgusting, perverted, twisted, pornographic or whatever, leave them for the people who don't, and stay away. You wouldn't buy a pornographic magazine if you felt these things about porn, so why disturb yourself by reading about what goes on behind other people's closed doors?

    13. Unlike some supposed Christians, DDers are not out to indoctrinate the world with their personal religious or social beliefs. They are perfectly well aware that it wouldn't work constructively for every couple and they are perfectly well aware that it has to be a CHOICE, There is NO master plan to revert to a society in which women have no legal rights, freedom or choices. They see DD as ONE of the free choices that should be open to everyone about how they lead their private lives.

    Finally, you seem puzzled as to my opinion of the intitial post to this thread. Let me explain THAT in simple terms also:-

    Seebs had presented a logical and factual argument on the way that HE feels about what he believes to be DD. He hasn't insulted anyone personally ot suggested that his beliefs are any more valid than anyone else's and he doesn't presume to know what God's will or have a flawless and infallible knowledge of the bible. I don't disagree with Seebs' opinion on the incidents he understands to be DD because in my view they ARE abusive. However I also don't agree that these acts ARE DD and I don't believe that any DDer I know would agree either. Finally despite his clearly strong views, Seebs has prevented no-one from expressing their views even though he could have done. I therefore have respect for him.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-04-12 03:31 · #

  161. Christian Wife,

    Just to clarify one or two things in my previous post, which I wrote in a hurry just before I left for work.

    In your posts, I see a very great deal telling me, "What God says", "what God wants" and what "the bible says". I would like to say that as a fully competent and averagely intelligent Christian adult of sound and independent mind, I am perfectly capable of reading the bible and deciding for myself what God says and wants. However, what I would not presume to do is to instruct someone else that they must go against their own hearts and read and interpret the bible in exactly the same way as I. This to me would be prideful and arrogant in the extreme, and therefore in direct conflict with MY VIEW of charitable Christian behaviour and MY VIEW of "what God says". A perfect example of this is the way in which you purport to know the "one true way" about submission in the bible. This has been, and still is, a matter of constant and varied debate between Christians of all beliefs. How is it then that YOUR knowledge of God and YOUR opinion is so much more infallible and correct than that of anyone else that everyone else must follow suit?

    Similarly, I would not constantly repeat the same string of completely unsubstantiated assumptions about other people's motives, thoughts, intentions, successes and failures when I have absolutley NO knowledge of these things. I base my opinions here on what I have learned through listening, talking, reading and meeting people in the domestic discipline lifestyle over several years. You base yours on a few weeks of reading on a small number of sites, some of which are not DD sites at all. (Example: You refer to a site called, " Master and Slave for Jesus" and, if you had the slightest comprehension of the concept of DD, you would know that Master/slave is NOTHING to do with DD) Or maybe I am wrong and you take your cue from people like the self appointed 'ministers' Lori and Paul Bayerling, who display a similar lack of knowledge of what DD is about and a similar lack of humility when laying down the gospel according to them.

    At different points in this conversation you have suggested that I cannot read or am stupid because I have disagreed with what I believe to be your completely inaccurate assessment of DD. Although I have already explained the whole thing several times over it is clear that YOU have understood nothing, so please let me spell it out for you in simple and starightfoward terms:-


    1. Domestic discipline is something which is decided on and agreed to in entirety by two adult and equal people in an intimate relationship. If it is NOT consensually and fully agreed and is imposed on an unwillinging wife by her husband, it IS NOT DD - it is abuse. If a couple starts DD and it doesn'r work out or one partner changes his/her mind IT CEASES BECAUSE IT IS NO LONGER CONSENSUAL. Read any DD group and learn the truth of this.

    2. Domestic Discipline is NOT a matter of total and absolute control and subversion by one partner over the other in all areas of life. It is introduced and used as a method of loving control and support in particular areas in which BOTH partners want to see change. In all other areas of life the balance of power remains equal and decisions are made jointly or by EITHER partner. It also does not mean that a wife cannot be well educated, ambitious or pursue a career of her own with her husband's full support.

    3. Not ALL couples use spanking or 'punishments' in DD, but when they do this is with the FULL CONSENT of both partners. If there is not full consent, it is abuse, Read the sites and see for yourself.

    4, DD has nothing at all to do with the children of the family, the neighbours, friends or relatives. It is a private arrangement between two adult intimate partners that is kept from others for the sake of discretion in exactly the way that sexual matters are kept private and intimate. This is not a case of hiding something one is ashamed of or cannot be open about, but a healthy case of preservation of privacy. This is not 'hair-splitting' it is just plain social convention and normal common sense.

    5. DD is not a NEW thing. It has happened since the beginning of documented time. The only difference is that lately people have found a new place to discuss it with others of like mind.

    6. People in DD relationships do not beat, maim, humiliate, or damage each other either physically or emotionally. They treat each other with as much respect and love as any other couple and in many cases probably with a great deal more. Some of them spank. Others do not.

    7. SOME people in DD relationships base the concept on the idea of wifely submission in the bible, others do not. YOU may not read those verses in that way, but many people DO.

    8. DD to the people who practise it is LOVING and SUPPORTIVE way to change and develop the closeness and connection within a relationship. As such they do not regard it as cruel, humiliating, divisive or destructive.

    9. If DD works for the partipants, it makes them happy, it affects or involves no-one else, and it removes no-one's freedom of choice, it is a SUCCESS and not a "failure".

    10. No TRUE Christian advocate of DD (Master/slave is NOT DD), pretends for one moment that it is biblical for a man to spank his wife. Simply put - THE BIBLE DOES NOT SAY A MAN SHOULD SPANK HIS WIFE. We are all in total and absolute agreement with this - so no argument for you there. However there is no getting away from the fact that the bible doesn't forbid or discourage anything which is a loving and mutually respectful act between a married couple either. Although YOU don't see DD in this light, that is how people in DD see it.

    11. DD CAN be partly sexual because it occurs between two loving people in an intimate commited relationship. Nothing against THAT in the bible either.

    12, Conversations and stories on DD sites are sometimes explicit BECAUSE DD is enacted within committed adult relationships. The conversations are intended for the people who practise or support the lifestyle. Like DD they are not for everyone. If you find them, sickening, disgusting, perverted, twisted, pornographic or whatever, leave them for the people who don't, and stay away. You wouldn't buy a pornographic magazine if you felt these things about porn, so why disturb yourself by reading about what goes on behind other people's closed doors?

    13. Unlike some supposed Christians, DDers are not out to indoctrinate the world with their personal religious or social beliefs. They are perfectly well aware that it wouldn't work constructively for every couple and they are perfectly well aware that it has to be a CHOICE, There is NO master plan to revert to a society in which women have no legal rights, freedom or choices. They see DD as ONE of the free choices that should be open to everyone about how they lead their private lives.

    Finally, you seem puzzled as to my opinion of the intitial post to this thread. Let me explain THAT in simple terms also:-

    Seebs had presented a logical and factual argument on the way that HE feels about what he believes to be DD. He hasn't insulted anyone personally ot suggested that his beliefs are any more valid than anyone else's and he doesn't presume to know what God's will or have a flawless and infallible knowledge of the bible. I don't disagree with Seebs' opinion on the incidents he understands to be DD because in my view they ARE abusive. However I also don't agree that these acts ARE DD and I don't believe that any DDer I know would agree either. Finally despite his clearly strong views, Seebs has prevented no-one from expressing their views even though he could have done. I therefore have respect for him.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-04-12 03:32 · #

  162. Submitting:

    Eph.5,33:Every each of you shall love your own wife as his own flesh, and the wife shall see to that she has awe for him.
    "Shall see to", it is voluntarily, a great point for God, He can`t win her her soul (and heart) ,otherwise. Him, The Lord is zealous and won`t accept that the husband takes his place here.

    Koll.3,18: You wives, shall be submitting to your own
    husbands , ïn decorum (propriety) to the Lord
    CW;
    The Lord don`t meant that we shall find our own way in (this. He has a clear meaning about submitting,and about every area in our lives. In a gentle way he wants us to come to Him, but though circumstances will sometimes make us do his will.
    That means not spanking of adults,and woman are adults, they are not children.We will never grow up to real spiritual maturity like he want us to do with "the help of the rod" like some cdd explains it.
    It is wrong to dicsipline your spouse, he or she is not your child, in this case the wife; though she is submitting to her husband as the church to Christ . The way the author of that aricle made the picture about this theme is totally wrong and a dirtortion,and Caro,you said I had misunderstood this guy and what he was written. I can`t understand that.
    But i am sure you are right when you say that there are dd-ers that don`t claim that dd is Gods will, and that is good.

    But I simply don`t believe what you`r saying accorded to that article, the words I wrote was the beginning of the article and were words for words, and there are more.
    What about the questions and his answers, can you mention some of them describing what you think about that?

    Jesus gave himself to us as a complete and holy sacrifice , he washed his disciples feet to show us something right before he was cruxified. What was Jesus telling us by this?

    That we all shall submit to each other, being servants.

    Caro: We live in a world believing that what we are doing in privacy doesn`t effect others, we do what we want.I`m not so sure about that. Isn`t that an illusion?
    I think our privacy effects others.
    But Ella Bella and Marjorie and others and myself have the right to react and may bee use the tool that internet has becomed in this days and be posting.
    Though it is several different things that can be said about internet, not only positively.

    Phil.4,3: And , I ask you with strong desire, my faithful and true contributor,to help this women that did the struggle and fought with me in the work for the gospel, together with Clemens and with others of my contributors with their names written in The Book of The Vived.


    2. Thimoteus,3,16
    The whole script are in the spirit by God`s breath, useful to knowledge, conviction, to directing, and to teaching and enlightement in Justice.
    The Whole script must be readen to actually see what is Gods will and what He means.

    Caro, I suppose we have read the same article, overhead is: "DD in a Christian Marriages" (author unknown)" -She must really like what she was reading.She also have a drawth from finnish Kalavala, that is from a time before Finland and Scandinavia become christenized. Kalavala was heathen.
    Woman ar not always behaving mature at all, this days, but that includes in deed men, too.I am concerned about that people today seems to loose their grip and commom sense, laying their lives in the hands of socshiopaths on internet. Some of the last I read on the newspaper was a mother offering her 4-5 years old daughther to abusers for money. Some asks people they don`t really know about advise how he or she should spank their child.It`so far out,evilness, it hadn`t been possible without internet, not your dd-rings either.
    I think that dd-ers like yourself, ( I call you that, you are in it in your mind and soul)often are a bit slippery, it is something I`ve seen.
    There are several stories in the Bible about Women that served Jesus, they were there together with him, too. They didn`t become apostles, and it was a good thing, but read about Martha and Mary, Mary choosed the good part, sitting and listening by his feet.

    And"who are without sin?" Everyone dropped their stones.
    You can read between the lines about how Jesus related to women and man, with love and respect. The story about when He drove out the bettlers from the temple with a whip is not a story about how to whip your wife as this "pastor" in a cdd related it to.Not very convincing though.
    In Sweden there is a pastor sitting in jail commited for murder on one of hid two dead wifes. He was suspected for murdering for both
    his wives, making his babysitter and mistress murder his last wife. That community become more and more secteric. They do evil things, adultery believing it is from God.Now, after the murders I read that they`d become even more secteric, believing they are from God, The outsiders are evil. It is dangerous isn`t it?

    — Christian Wife · 2007-04-12 05:22 · #

  163. When I send a posting here, it takes about 1 day or sometimes 2, so they are not always answers to the posts from you, Caro.I sometimes send a couple at a time if i have much laying on my heart. I`ll soon quit, and of course i apologize being rude and insoent.Iam a scandinavian, and though english were my favourite subject in school, I was quitting school at 16, many, many years ago. My lack of knowledge of english lanuage makes me work like a dog here, sitting all day with a dictionary, too much work!
    I begun posting here because i were pissed on behalf of Marjorie, thinking you were...may bee I shouldn`t use those word, then I would bee insolent again.I didn`t at all like the way you went on her.Frankly, were you so " shocked",about here? It is not my style to go into a forum on false precentenses, but wow, was it really that bad and shocking? The stories she told were more shocking i think. So, Marjorie, if you are reading this,you did a great job on this topic, only the arguing between you guys took too long, Caro loves to be the one having the last word.
    Ella bella,too, you have right about what you are saying on this topic.
    caro, quite intelligent, mabee wastin, it, but have a great springtime all of you!

    — Christian wife · 2007-04-12 07:14 · #

  164. Dear Caro, it was not my opinion to pretend that I am an expert when it comes to bibelknowledge. May bee because of my english language difficulties I was a bit handicapped in giving a complete expression with varies. It has been very hard to me to express my self sometimes.
    Something that may were my reaction and answers to that article could seem to be a reaction to you. I think there is quite a difference when some cdd`ers trying to make this fit into biblical submitting from people that are not. It was a reaction on that article. In this article the author mentioned that master/ slave thing, I think the article is on Leah kelley home webside if you or others on this topic wants to read it properly. I printed it out, it was about 8-9 pages. It was a reaction on it`s contain and because I thought you`d read the same article.
    Again I apoligise being insolvent to you.


    — Christian Wife · 2007-04-13 08:54 · #

  165. Hi, wow! I just read through everything and this was/is a hot topic. I am 19 years old and in college. I recently asked my boyfriend of almost 1 1/2 years to enter into a DD relationship with me and I am not ashamed of it.

    I found out about DD through a friend on a sex advice website that had nothing to do with DD. At first I thought I was going more towards a BDSM relationship, but that wasn't really what I wanted. She directed me to research on my own about DD, not giving me a "its right" or "its wrong" but leaving it up to me to decide. So I did, and I was amazed at how loving it is! My boyfriend has always helped me to improve myself, encouraging me to resolve bad behaviors and to do things that were healthy and benefitial to the relationship. Recently, I have been finding myself continuously falling into the same habits over and over, and although I have tried to break them myself, I know that I need extra help. I asked him to help me be accountable for my actions by giving him permission to apply punishment if I am irrisponsible or break one of the rules that the two of us created together. These include lying, skipping classes/ assignments, swearing, being disobedient (breaking the rules of the house or not doing something he has asked me to do), and "bratting" (doing things to purposefully annoy him or having a destructive attitude towards myself or others). These are all negative behaviors that keep me from being the best "me" that I can be.

    I have asked him to remind me when I do wrong and if need be to punish me, and I trust him that he will not take advantage of his position and abuse me. I agree that abuse is punishment without consent. The difference here is that I have asked him to do this, and have consented to submit to whatever decisions he makes as to what kind of punishment I recieve. Afterwards we always talk about what happened, if I felt like it worked an what we should change to improve it.

    I think that in DD as well as in any other relationship, communication is essential. You definately need to be able to negotiate what constitutes as bad behavior with your partner or husband. It would be unfair if I was spanked for going outside without any shoes on if he did not tell me not to. That makes the relationship unpredictable, and would leave me looking over my shoulder all the time to see what I did wrong.

    One of the most positive things about DD is that it allows for more communication channels in couples, as well as providing a bond of complete trust and love between the participants.

    Also, sometimes when he spanks, I don't feel like it was adequate punishment. There is an amazing feeling of release and forgiveness when he holds me in his arms after punishing me, but not unless I have been sufficiently punished. I have to communicate this to him. Sometimes this means that I get more spanks (which is not fun), and other times I get a different punishment.

    Also remember that not all DD-ers (is that a word?) use spanking as punishment. I am usually spanked, but he also gives me "corner time" (usually when I have a bad attitude) or removes one of my privileges (like watching T.V. or something). You don't always have to use physical punishment- sometimes just knowing that he is disappointed in my behavior hurts more than anything else. Above all, I know that he loves me and wants me to be a better person. That's why DD works for me.

    Caro, I think you are great at summing up what DD is. I believe in the Bible too, even though it is not a reason why we practice DD. I think it is neat how you can support your argument without bashing other people. Kudos!

    — Quiet_Strength · 2007-04-17 11:18 · #

  166. This is some rubbish, people are really losing their grips these days. What you are doing are wrong. You should ask God for forgiveness,but He is not your Lord is He? Repending is the need for people today, not this worshipping of false gods or idols,as dd are. You should be ashame of your self. Bad behaviours we all have from time to time, what about your guy? Should you spank hi then?

    — Christian Wife · 2007-04-19 04:24 · #

  167. Here comes my last posting on this topic: When I was a kid we had some neighbours that I will say lived in a dd-way in it`s words right meaning. They were looked at with disgust and contempt by the neighbourhood,( in the 60-es) the "man " in the house weren`t working,his wife and children were not at all happy, they were looked at as fools and scum. One of the girls and I went in the same class, my family moved into this neighbourhood and I was new in the class. I was told not to play or be with this girl by some of the other girls, but my heart went out to her, she longed for a friend, and I couldn`t resist it. We became friends but my daddy didn`t like me to be in this girls home. He had right about that. The father in the house spanked both wife and the 2 daughters, but of course in those days it was quite common to spank children,now it is not allowed by the law in my country.He also used to have a cable surround the freez so they couldn`t come to the food if he were out. Now they are more sofisticated and decadent those who are in dd-relationships ,but I think this example shows what dd is, it is some crap! You can worship it and make it sound nice, but it isn`t. And I wonder what kind of relations there have been in the families they comes from walking into this kind of relationships? Where are your mam and dad and sisters and brothers, what do they feel about this when a daugther and sister lives in a relationship like this? Have they ever been their for their girls, those daddies, and what if a brother becomes furious and licking the "brave" spanko. We are all in deed in need for some extra help in some ( may bee many!) areas in our lifes,and of course we can feel quite desperate some times. But it is the wrong choice dd-ers take for the solution.Longing for love and someone who really cares, so many feel invisible today, is one rather importent reason for many in this dd thing, the fathers
    lack of interest for his child, - girls need to have the feedback from their fathers that they are prescious and beautiful to them, the lack of this in their childhood are some of the reasons for people making this choice.
    It really is a agreement to the assertion of that she is often the one that wants to go into this when I read that Quiet Strength used 1 and 1/2 year to make him go into this. I think it is quite manipulative,too. It`s a part of the game. I`ve seen Vicky Blue , The Woodshed,and others on internet a couple of months ago, and it is really some crap, I`m not impressed at all. Hearing that some lady with 3 kids received a "spanking of course"because she didn`t reach to make the housework because of unlooked things that was happening with the kids ;-I think it`s so stupid I nearly can`t stand it, the same thing when a husband that nearly died of 4 wacks from the paddle in school, gives his wife 150!
    This are not real men, but maybee girls don`t get real men today, because they don`t deserve it? The only way to get help are The Cavalry and not a false new age imagination of who Christ is.
    Jesus died for us covering us with his blood, that means a crush in our hearts, comes to the cavalry again and again.
    That is the way to go when you need some help, not a false copy like DD.
    And we can`t crucify Jesus one more time. I do feel free to not respect this choice of living, knowing that not everything in my own life is good. But I don`t at all buy those good "benefits" of yours.That is my choice in this.

    — CHRISTIAN WIFE · 2007-04-19 09:12 · #

  168. Christian Wife,

    What you describe here is the actions of a man whose intention was to control and restrict the actions of his family without regard for their feelings or rights as human beings. Quite simply, this man was a control freak, and probably an abuser and, whatever he was practising, it was NOT domestic discipline as it is known within DD communities.

    I have tried very hard to explain to you that domestic discipline in that context is a loving, supportive, and above all, consensual thing, that occurs privately between two ADULTS in an intimate relationship. It is not practised to relieve insecurities or to exercise control for its own sake, but in response to a MUTUALLY AGREED need and desire for change and development resulting in greater 'connection' within the relationship. As such, it bears absolutely no resemblance to the situation that you have described above. It is not a magic formula to cure the ills in all relationships, it isn't perfect, and it would not work positively for everyone. However, the fact of the matter is that it does appear to work, and work well, for many couples who make the free and calculated choice to adopt it as a way of life.

    No-one is asking you, Marjorie, Ella Bella, or anyone else who does not believe in its benefits to embrace this as a way of life, and it is, as you say, your choice to reject it. However, by the same token, it is the perogative and right of those who DO believe in it to make this decision for themselves, whether or not you approve of their choices. As I said in an earlier post, if you cannot stand to read these things then you do not have to read them. No-one is forcing you to and the choice is entirely yours.

    With regard to your remark about my liking the 'last word', the fact is that there have been many 'last words' from all kinds of posters to this topic because each person has exercised his or her own right to defend their opinion. Some posts on both sides have been rude and dismissive; others have been well measured and thoughtful arguments with many merits. I have no respect for the former and every respect for the latter. The debate about honesty between Marjorie and myself arose because Marjorie described a situation in which she had perpetiuated a string of lies in order to infiltrate a DD community and gain the personal friendship and confidence of some of the women in it, only to dump them out of hand when it suited her. Amazingly, in the same post, she accused people in DD relationships of dishonesty. I found this to be hypocritical in the extreme and that is why I was "shocked". However, Marjorie freely admitted that she was at fault and she and I eventually resolved the matter quite amicably.

    I disagree completely with your insinuation that this is some kind of 'new age' invention, as I disagree strongly with much of your asessment of the meaning of the scriptures in earlier posts. If anything, I would say that, in the patriarchal culture of biblical times in which women were virtually the 'property' of first their fathers and then their husbands and had no personal rights in law, it was probably far MORE prevalent than it is today. However, in common with the great majorty of 'DDers', Christian and otherwise, I still don't claim that this makes DD 'biblical'.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-04-20 21:19 · #

  169. It's taken me a while to come back to this discussion. I really wish now that I had never made a comment. I have always felt proud to discuss my views on everything from religion to politics, and until now have never been met with such outright hostility. This is the reason why so many people who practice DD feel like they have to do it in secret for fear of being treated like a woman during the Salem Witch Trials. I am appaled at how many people who proclaim themselves as Christians are so close-minded to the ideas that others have. Jesus touched lepers, prostitutes, and tax collectors. He was compassionate and loving, he didn't dismiss them or damn them all to hell. Those "Christians" who are acting this way should take another look at the Bible before passing judgement. I respect Christian Wife's opinions, but believe that the way in which she expressed them was very hurtful and degrading. I feel as if you are trying to make me believe I am less of a person simply because I disagree with your beliefs. Is that how Jesus treated the Samaratin woman? She was of a culture that was not congruent with Judaism, but he still spoke civily to her, without demeaning her status as a HUMAN BEING. I understand that you have strong beliefs, and I applaud your resiliance in holding firm to what you believe, but please do not dismiss other people's opinions just because they do not match yours.Thank you.

    I would also like to comment that I disagree with your statement that we are worshiping DD. Do you worship being a democrat or republican (since I don't know which you are I listed both)? Do you worship being an citizen of your country? Do you worship being a woman? No. Those are simply things that you are a part of. You are a woman, you are a citizen, you do affiliate with some political party, but you do not "worship" any of these things. That's how it is with DD. I do not bow to the "alter" of my boyfriend, but together we are persuing a mutual relationship of trust, love, and respect. I do not treat his like Christ, as you think, but I respect him as the man I love and as the one I know loves me. He has agreed to help me in this because he wants whats best for me, and trusts that if I say that I think this will be best, it will be. It's like if I had a peanut allergy and asked him to stop buying peanut products because they could potentially hurt me. He would stop immediately because he loves me. My bad habits and behaviors damage not only me, but also our relationship. He keeps me accountable to maintaining a healthy, loving relationship, which is never a bad thing.

    I was thouroughly offended when you said "used 1 and 1/2 year to make him go into this. I think it is quite manipulative,too." I will take a moment to rant:

    How dare you accuse me of being manipulative when you do not know me from Adam! For your information, I have only known about DD for the past TWO MONTHS and have never had an interest in puishment before then. I was not "waiting" to spring my "desires" on him until our relationship was "firmly rooted." You have no right to make that kind of assumption about me. We only play spanked up unitl now (a playful swat or two as I passed by- which I'm sure your "Christian Husband" has done on occasion, most guys do), and have never had any interest in DD. It is only a recent discovery and I am very thankful for people like Caro who do not let their own personal opinions make them act so PIG HEADED that they cannot listen to someone else's opinion without feeling super defensive. Have I made any assumptions about you? That you are the kind of woman they wrote Carrie's mother after in that film? That you were abused as a child so that's why you are so set against DD? NO I HAVE NOT, because I do not know you and would not want to hurt you by making damaging assumptions. I do not appreciate what you said, nor the fact that you are trying to yse your words to damage other people by making them feel like they are not worthy of life. If I killed myself would that make you happy? Then the world would be free of one more "evil DD worshiper," and "good" christians like you could lord it over everyone.

    I am sorry that I lost my temper. Thank you again Caro for your comments, although I don't know how you have the patience to speak rationally with anyone here. I am really sorry that I posted at all. I didn't think people could be so cruel with their words just because I had a different life style. I will not post again. I will continue practicing DD in secret, like many others who fear this modern day rise of the Spanish Inquisition.

    — Quiet_Strength · 2007-05-02 13:01 · #

  170. Why I called yoy manipulative was because you said that you used 1 and a half year to get your boyfriend into DD, and that makes me think that`s what`s said about that is true that it`s often the women that are the ones that takes the first step into this. (I believe certainly not always).I read once that some men are very unhappy by this and felt that they were tearing apart. So I feel that girls, women should be responsible persons and not manipulate their men into this.It was wrong of me to say that you did to get your man into this. I do respect women very much, I also feel worried about people as young as you are,gets into this.I am more shocked of the answer "Marjorie" got from one mother that she would think it was allright if her daughter went into a DDrelationship, than the fact that M was making them believe she was "one of them". Really,we are all just people, human beeings, and I am not perfect in any way. Just happy sometimes because i am loved by God and some people( My family). I am a bit worried because I feel that people are loosing their grips more and more ( not all), they are going so easily into thing that are not normal.As they have not a solid ground under their feet. And I don`t say now that you are not normal.I see that I can give a wrong impression very easily and says things in a way I do not always see by myself, maybee harsh or something. I am not that kind of person. I am quite mild, but get a bit furious sometimes.I don`t feel that i am better than others just because I am a chistian. I wanted not to post any more on this topic, life is to beatiful to waste on this, and right now I am a bit busy and don`t feel that I have something more reasonible to say. You don`t know me and I don`t know you, but one thing I am certain of, we are all prescious to God.

    — Christian( of God`s grace, not by my own perfection) still married,also by the grace og God · 2007-05-09 06:26 · #

  171. Stick your butt out."
    "Nooooo…..please, no more!"
    "We're not finished, stick your ass out now!"

    I slowly jutted my bottom out again, my body was shaking in anticipation of the foreign object. In only a second I heard a strange swoosh through the air, and then an unbelievable explosion of pain shot through my left cheek, and seemed to spread across my entire bottom.

    I jumped immediately and tried to get away from the painful implement. Will put his hand on the back of my neck and forced me back down into the chair. I was crying loudly now, screaming with each searing strike. He continued with twenty or thirty (I was in no position to count!) agonizing swings, before he finally released me and helped me out of the chair.

    What do you think about this story, is this love? This is sick! I want to kill guys like that, slowly and painfull ( no, am to softhearted) This is an example of stories connected to DD.

    DD is not a normal and righteous way of lifestyle, because it often and mostly is spanking of the wife, the female, included. This is not normal and is neither even a respectable way of living.
    And never will be.
    But that does not mean that all persons involved needs to be bad or perverse, though there are some who is.
    Of course our choices always will have an effect on us in the long term, and we do not always see the result before after some years, may be not before we are old.
    What you do when you are a youth make you taste the fruit of it at 30-40-50, so it is serious.
    It claims on this topic that this is a choice that some couples take in full agreement and in mutual respect between them.
    I think maybe it is in some cases.
    But I think this has many aspects.
    One is, what if one or both wants to skip this?
    Because this is not a normal standard of way of living in our society, people in this relationships seek to others in the same boat, which is quite understandable, but then the couple suddenly have several people to answer for, why they shall quit and so one. It cannot be easy. A pressure will be set on them, there is always someone that means something about your decisions, and they are not always neutral. Seldom that, I `l suppose
    I am not all convinced in the debt of “mutual respect” between couples, because we live like we learn nowadays, seeking to get and not always give, have our less healthy desires satisfied in a selfish way.
    And the woman is as often selfish.
    I am convinced on the fact that these who have got their need met in the childhood or have not been abused, never takes an interest in DD.
    But of course we live in this earth were not very much are likely what it should be, and many children suffers, there emotions in adultness are a result of the wants that are not met and that sometimes gets a perverted direction.
    Families have also being gone in dissolution for some years, divorces, and that makes the children`s life tearing apart some way or another.
    Desiring in the direction of DD means these needs are not met, and is giving a perverted direction.
    I believe that everyone that has a desire for this spanking thing is in need for some psychical help. ( Of course voluntary)

    18 years limit:

    You are allowed to visit the sp.sites at 18.
    I remember very well when I was 18. Thought everything was under control, but that was wrong.
    I think this 18 years limit is too low. You are not at all mature at 18,even if there are differences between youngsters.
    I think that gives a heavy burden on the shoulders to they whom are hosts or hostesses on those spankingsites, I am happy that I am not in their shoes.
    It is a big responsible when it comes to youngsters.

    To Quiet Strength:
    You are only 19 years old, I only get sad of this. You cannot count out your future by that age.
    You will never be helped by this, and neither are your friend, maybe he is young, too?
    I do not despise you for it, but I think you never will be helped by it. And most probable hurt in the long term, or be hurting others. Just be careful!

    Behaving on internet:

    Some people are more clever than others to behave, or are behaving better.
    It is a good thing to behave and never use wrong and harsh words. But for me it is always more important:
    -What is behind?
    -What is in heart?
    -What is really the message behind?
    I do not say that I am against good behaviour or does not see it`s valuable, because it is..
    The same way when it comes to education;
    -Elie Wiesel said people don`t get good or do right because of education ,though education can be a good thing. I know this is true though education is a good thing.
    So I am never impressed of peoples just because they are educated, that do not makes them automatically wise or righteous, unfortunately.

    So, I separate between what people are in, because we are vulnerable human beings, and what we are. But we as people, the humanity has done very many wrong decisions in history, and DD relationship is one of them.
    And Quiet Strength: very seldom has my husband slapped me behind, there are in fact not all men that have their interests in such things. But he is strong personality then and have a strong character.


    Caro; I read your posting these days from 12. april and your 12 points. Why I haven`t read it properly before is because of my language problems and a great deal of long postings .
    It is difficult for me because of the language, and a great deal of working, but also teaching.

    1; What does the word domestic discipline means?
    In my dictionary it says: DOMESTIC= HOUSE, INNER, HOME-; TAME, DOMESTICATED.
    DISCIPLINE= TEACHING, SUBJECT, comes from the word DISCIPLE.
    I have to say that I get the creep of the words “tame”, “inner”, “house”, like: “ choking, “ shut up”, ”suppression”, but I don`t doubt you, Caro, about what you say that it`s a reality for some couples you know about mutual respect and so one.
    But I don`t think it`s that easy for everyone, and that it happens to be automatically that successful as you promote, either in the short and suddenly not in the long term, at least not for everybody.
    Life is not that easy.
    I am agree with you about what you say is abuse, but I also think that it is a risk for some to draw the limit to far, so that in some cases it becomes abuse. Just like in childrearing.
    Some people might have more selfcontrol, and more love for each other than others have. Love is very important.

    2: I think there are big differences in how DD is practising in homes when it comes to how much freedom the couples gives to each other. In Dd the meaning is that one of the couple shall be submitted to the others, mostly woman submits to men, there are of course in some rare cases the opposite way.( man submitted to woman)
    How it remains (the details) in practise, may be different from home to home.

    3: Yes. I `ve read that it`s different ways to practise DD way of living.

    4: DD has nothing to do with the children? As we see what Domestic means, aren`t the children in the same home? I think you have right that in some cases, the children are hold without this, that some couples keep this strict apart from the children, bless them!
    But unfortunately not all are, maybe CDD ( Christian DD) more often are including childrearing in this concept.
    I read some dreadful stories from one called himself Winternute, you get sick when you read it. I felt a sort of relief though when he told about himself in “Who is Winternute”, there was a huge separate between his stories and his privacy when it came to his child, fortunately.
    Let us just jump over “ hairsplitting”.

    5: I disgree with you in that DD has happened from the time history was documented , if you mean by that about DD as something that was common and practising in every societies.
    The man was the boss and the wife submit to him, but it has never been common that the husband actually spanked her. I think that is a lack of knowledge and a lie.
    Please Caro, I don`t say that you are I lier now, there are a few people more than you that claims that as a truth, but I don`t believe it.
    I come from a country where the vikings ruled, and apart from the slaves, the women had much to say about in those societies and had much influence.( mayne not a good influence, always)

    6: I don`t doubt you about this in some homes, but I am a bit surprised that you claim this to be happening as one rule over the whole line and in every home.

    7: I read that article on a cdd - website, I try to paste it over on this website. He and Leah K tries to make this suit the bible, but not in a convincing way. I have not said that you or your friends claims it to be biblical, and I think that is more honest.

    8: Well…

    9: How successful is it really for every exerciser of DD? In the long term, not at least.

    10: Read the article of “Ned” and Maria” and you se something else, or read from Leah K. They say something else than you. But I agree in that it is not at all biblical.

    11: Sex in marriage is not at all against the bible, you have right in that,in fact it is highly recommended, as the opposite to from without marriage .

    12: I do stay away, Caro, but I had to se what is was first, didnt` I?
    How could I know otherwise?

    13: Live your life as you pleases.

    But for the young people: there are a price to pay for everything, be aware!

    I think you are rather straight, Caro.




    — Christian wife · 2007-05-10 12:06 · #

  172. Quiet Strength I am an older woman who has seen many changes in how women today connect without shame to who they are. My generation was different we talked about nothing and our mother's told us it hurt. So at a young age to be able to know who you are is wonderful thing. It is also something that you must use good judgement before handing over this power to another person. I do not understand this entire DD thing except I am intriqued why any woman would give this control to another person to maintain there appropriate behavior.

    — Ella Bella · 2007-05-10 14:52 · #

  173. Christian Wife, you said:

    "Why I called yoy manipulative was because you said that you used 1 and a half year to get your boyfriend into DD, and that makes me think that`s what`s said about that is true that it`s often the women that are the ones that takes the first step into this. (I believe certainly not always).I read once that some men are very unhappy by this and felt that they were tearing apart. So I feel that girls, women should be responsible persons and not manipulate their men into this.It was wrong of me to say that you did to get your man into this. I do respect women very much, I also feel worried about people as young as you are,gets into this.I am more shocked of the answer "Marjorie" got from one mother that she would think it was allright if her daughter went into a DDrelationship, than the fact that M was making them believe she was "one of them". Really,we are all just people, human beeings, and I am not perfect in any way. Just happy sometimes because i am loved by God and some people( My family). I am a bit worried because I feel that people are loosing their grips more and more ( not all), they are going so easily into thing that are not normal.As they have not a solid ground under their feet. And I don`t say now that you are not normal.I see that I can give a wrong impression very easily and says things in a way I do not always see by myself, maybee harsh or something. I am not that kind of person. I am quite mild, but get a bit furious sometimes.I don`t feel that i am better than others just because I am a chistian. I wanted not to post any more on this topic, life is to beatiful to waste on this, and right now I am a bit busy and don`t feel that I have something more reasonible to say. You don`t know me and I don`t know you, but one thing I am certain of, we are all prescious to God."
    _______________________________________________________

    Despite the fact that, throughout this thread, many people have explained the circumstances and basis of DD, you still seem to be very confused about this whole concept. To begin with, it has been said over and over again that DD is MUTUALLY consensensual. That is to say that BOTH partners have to agree to it before it can be put in place. For a previous poster to say it took two years for her and her partner to make the decision to practise it doesn't mean that one spent two years 'manipulating' the other into doing something that he/she didn't want to do - it just means that they were cautious and sensible about the whole thing and DIDN'T just rush into it in the way that you imply that people do. In my experience that is generally the way of things in DD relationships. As to the poster being "too young", personally, I think age is often relative since I know people of fifty who behave in a less mature way than others of eighteen.

    Secondly with regard to what Marjorie said about the mother and daughter, I will reiterate what I said earlier in the thread and tell you that Marjorie DID NOT represent this conversation on this subject as it really occured. What actually happened was this. A mother described on one closed DD group how she and her husband had had to rescue their daughter from a verbally abusive relationship in which the girl had been abused by her live-in boyfriend to the extent that she had lost all self esteem and confidence and needed counselling. The relationship was not, and never had been, a DD one. Although the daughter knows nothing of her parents' DD relationship, the mother was initially concerned that her daughter might have inherited her mother's tendency to be attracted to men who appear 'dominant' thus making her a target for abusers. In the ensuing conversation, the mother DID NOT say that it would "be alright if her daughter went into a DD relationship" - she said that she hoped that her daughter would find a relationship as close and good as the one her parents have. In my opinion that is only what most of us want for our children. Also, just for the record,
    the comments that Marjorie claims to have made DO NOT appear in the thread, and there is no evidence that she was set upon by other group members for disagreeing with them in the way that she claims. How do I know all of this? I know it because I am a member of that group and I have met both mother and daughter in person. Marjorie's justification that this occured in another group does not stand up either, because I have it from the mother that this was the ONLY group in which this was posted.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-05-10 22:20 · #

  174. I said in my prew posting that it was wrong of me to assume that QS manipulated her boyfriend into a DD relationship. I don`t want to hurt her and I am sorry for that.
    But there are a lot of manipulating between partners and people as a whole these days, people are much more selfish and want to please themself, on cost to others. It is not because we want to be selfish but our generation has been used to it. People in old days thougth more on others, and that is a challenge not at least on christians, and me, to take.
    But we get hurt and have to pay the price ourselves, too, when we are selfish.
    Caro, I `ve tried to answer you now on your posting 12 of april. I see what you mean, I am not all that convinced, though.

    I am agree with you in that some young people maybe seems to be more mature than others on 50. But they are in most cases not, because even if you are mature of your age, you have not lived that many years. I am in the beginning of my 50`s my self, and can be childish even then. But I have lived through some cold winternights and experiensed what that is, and that is a very valuable and prescios knowledge. Experiences through life is highly valuable if you are a person that reflect on things and if you are a serious person. That doesn`t mean I have all things right.
    I disagree with Caro to be superfiscial in this about knowledge you gets in life.
    Living a life means much, and there are things you want young people to avoid. I know that descisions you take by 18-20, sometimes at 14-15, effects your life as an adult.I am not saying to QS that she shall stop her DD relations, just don`t be so selfish that you really don`t see how this can effect your boyfriends life in a long term. That is love, to care about others. And be aware of your own life. You are young and have so many possibilityes, so many mistakes to avoid or to take. I say this because I`ve been 19, too. Because of God`s grace I still sit here with a life and a family I love.
    I wish you luck in your life.

    To Caro: When I said I think you are Rather straight, I mean it as something positively.

    — Christian wife · 2007-05-11 01:21 · #

  175. ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "Stick your butt out."
    "Nooooo…..please, no more!"
    "We're not finished, stick your ass out now!"

    I slowly jutted my bottom out again, my body was shaking in anticipation of the foreign object. In only a second I heard a strange swoosh through the air, and then an unbelievable explosion of pain shot through my left cheek, and seemed to spread across my entire bottom.

    I jumped immediately and tried to get away from the painful implement. Will put his hand on the back of my neck and forced me back down into the chair. I was crying loudly now, screaming with each searing strike. He continued with twenty or thirty (I was in no position to count!) agonizing swings, before he finally released me and helped me out of the chair.

    What do you think about this story, is this love? This is sick! I want to kill guys like that, slowly and painfull ( no, am to softhearted) This is an example of stories connected to DD."

    ~~~~~~~~

    One can assume that, while the lady may not have enjoyed the experience at the time, this spanking was given entirely with her consent, You may not see it as love, but perhaps SHE does. For that reason, she might be inclined to want to kill YOU for interfering in her relationship. Again, - if you don't like it - then don't read it. The choice is entirely yours. If someone else WANTS to read it, then why shouldn't they also have that choice?.

    ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "DD is not a normal and righteous way of lifestyle, because it often and mostly is spanking of the wife, the female, included. This is not normal and is neither even a respectable way of living.
    And never will be"

    ~~~~~~~~

    Now let's rephrase this to reflect your real meaning. To my mind it should read more like, " I don't like the idea so it's not mormal". Who and what defines, "normal"? .Whatever YOU think is "normal and respectable" perhaps? So anyone who ventures outside that narrow scope is "abnormal". Okay, in that case, you had better define the rules of "normality" so that we all get it right.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "But that does not mean that all persons involved needs to be bad or perverse, though there are some who is."

    ~~~~~~~~

    Absolutely. Just as in EVERY walk of life and in EVERY scope of relationships there are people who are "perverse".

    ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "Of course our choices always will have an effect on us in the long term, and we do not always see the result before after some years, may be not before we are old.
    What you do when you are a youth make you taste the fruit of it at 30-40-50, so it is serious."

    ~~~~~~~~~

    Okay - in that case, perhaps we should raise the age of adult consent to 50, just in case somebody makes a mistake and marries the wrong person or chooses the wrong career or the wrong kind of sexuality because they don't have experience as an adult.

    _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "It claims on this topic that this is a choice that some couples take in full agreement and in mutual respect between them.
    I think maybe it is in some cases."

    ~~~~~~~~

    No - you are wrong there. It is so in ALL true DD relationships.

    _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "But I think this has many aspects.
    One is, what if one or both wants to skip this?"

    ~~~~~~~~

    Well, that's very simple - You just "skip it". No mystery. No dilemma. If it's no longer consensual it just doesn't happen. Period.

    ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "Because this is not a normal standard of way of living in our society, people in this relationships seek to others in the same boat, which is quite understandable, but then the couple suddenly have several people to answer for, why they shall quit and so one. It cannot be easy. A pressure will be set on them, there is always someone that means something about your decisions, and they are not always neutral. Seldom that, I `l suppose."

    ~~~~~~~~

    Absolute poppycock. If an adult wants to stop doing something, they will. Why should it this be any different from any other decision?

    _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "I am not all convinced in the debt of “mutual respect” between couples, because we live like we learn nowadays, seeking to get and not always give, have our less healthy desires satisfied in a selfish way.
    And the woman is as often selfish."

    ~~~~~~~~

    Okay. Now we have two people who want to lead their private lives in a particular way that will "get their desires met" respectfully. Let me see now, which one is "selfish"? Difficult question. On the other hand, many relationships, no matter what their type have a particpant who is selfish about something.

    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "I am convinced on the fact that these who have got their need met in the childhood or have not been abused, never takes an interest in DD." But of course we live in this earth were not very much are likely what it should be, and many children suffers, there emotions in adultness are a result of the wants that are not met and that sometimes gets a perverted direction.
    Families have also being gone in dissolution for some years, divorces, and that makes the children`s life tearing apart some way or another.
    Desiring in the direction of DD means these needs are not met, and is giving a perverted direction.

    ~~~~~~~~

    What an amazingly sweeping judgement! Please tell me what it was that "convinced" you. In several years of association with DD groups, I have never encountered this theory. Perhaps it is just something of which you have convinced yourself in order to justify yout attempts to convince us that people should not have the right to lead their private adult lives in the way that they wish.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


    "I believe that everyone that has a desire for this spanking thing is in need for some psychical help. ( Of course voluntary)"

    ~~~~~~~~

    Why would they do that? - it is YOU that thinks it is not 'normal' What if I said that I thought that everyone who does NOT have "a desire for this spanking thing" needed psychlogical help? Would that make me correct?

    _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "18 years limit:

    You are allowed to visit the sp.sites at 18.
    I remember very well when I was 18. Thought everything was under control, but that was wrong.
    I think this 18 years limit is too low. You are not at all mature at 18,even if there are differences between youngsters."

    ~~~~~~~~

    Sorry about that, but when the kid gets to 18, the law says he or she is an adult. He or she can go out to work full time, leave home, vote, have sex, get married and make and learn by his or her own mistakes. The fact that we may know better when we get older isn't going to change one bit of this. I suppose, as I said earlier, you could raise the age of consent and protect young people from themselves, but then all we'd have is inexperienced 'new' adults of a different age who would still have to go through the process of learning about life.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "I think that gives a heavy burden on the shoulders to they whom are hosts or hostesses on those spankingsites, I am happy that I am not in their shoes.
    It is a big responsible when it comes to youngsters."

    ~~~~~~~~

    Nope. The DD sites are pretty responsible all around especially with the young adults who seek them out. As for 'spanking sites' - well I wouldn't know about those sites since they have nothing at all to do with DD. Most I believe are paid sites hoping to make money out of a sexual fetish.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "Behaving on internet:

    Some people are more clever than others to behave, or are behaving better.
    It is a good thing to behave and never use wrong and harsh words. But for me it is always more important:
    -What is behind?
    -What is in heart?"

    ~~~~~~~~~

    People have told you repeatedly what is in their hearts and minds, and you have responded by calling them dishonest liars..

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "-What is really the message behind?
    I do not say that I am against good behaviour or does not see it`s valuable, because it is..
    The same way when it comes to education;
    -Elie Wiesel said people don`t get good or do right because of education ,though education can be a good thing. I know this is true though education is a good thing.

    So I am never impressed of peoples just because they are educated, that do not makes them automatically wise or righteous, unfortunately."

    ~~~~~~~~

    An interesting statement from one who has attampted to "educate" all of us on the meaning of the bible. Perhaps then, YOU are not as wise as you think.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "So, I separate between what people are in, because we are vulnerable human beings, and what we are. But we as people, the humanity has done very many wrong decisions in history, and DD relationship is one of them."

    ~~~~~~~~

    So you say. However many thousands of people over 2000 and more years disagree.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "Caro; I read your posting these days from 12. april and your 12 points. Why I haven`t read it properly before is because of my language problems and a great deal of long postings .
    It is difficult for me because of the language, and a great deal of working, but also teaching.

    1; What does the word domestic discipline means?
    In my dictionary it says: DOMESTIC= HOUSE, INNER, HOME-; TAME, DOMESTICATED.
    DISCIPLINE= TEACHING, SUBJECT, comes from the word DISCIPLE.

    I have to say that I get the creep of the words “tame”, “inner”, “house”, like: “ choking, “ shut up”, ”suppression”, but I don`t doubt you, Caro, about what you say that it`s a reality for some couples you know about mutual respect and so one."

    ~~~~~~~~

    I think that this is the language barrier speaking. "House" and "home", in this sense surely means simply "of the home" as we would mention someone's "domestic situation" when we talk about their (non DD) household arrangements. "Tame and domesticated" I would attribute to animals which are house trained and friendly to humans as in the difference between a wild and domesticated cat.

    As for 'disciple' - that simply means 'follower'.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "But I don`t think it`s that easy for everyone, and that it happens to be automatically that successful as you promote, either in the short and suddenly not in the long term, at least not for everybody.
    Life is not that easy".

    ~~~~~~~~

    Yet again I say that DD is not for everyone. Yet again I say that it doesn't work for everyone who tries it, and yet again, I say that if it doesn't work you stop doing it. What is so difficult about that?

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "I am agree with you about what you say is abuse, but I also think that it is a risk for some to draw the limit to far, so that in some cases it becomes abuse. Just like in childrearing.
    Some people might have more selfcontrol, and more love for each other than others have. Love is very important."

    ~~~~~~~~

    The difference between DD and abuse is that it DD a controlled and consensual way of life agrred upon by two loving adults, whereas abuse is something that is forced on a weaker person by a stronger one.. You cannot compare a formal arrangement to something that is done to cause harm in anger and without self control and with NO consent or agreement whatsover.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    " I think there are big differences in how DD is practising in homes when it comes to how much freedom the couples gives to each other. In Dd the meaning is that one of the couple shall be submitted to the others, mostly woman submits to men, there are of course in some rare cases the opposite way.( man submitted to woman)
    How it remains (the details) in practise, may be different from home to home."

    ~~~~~~~~

    Yes there is a vast spectrum of different levels of freedom and control. However, so long as they are consensually agreed, this changes nothing. I would venture to say that the same applies to the balance of power in most relationships.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    4: DD has nothing to do with the children? As we see what Domestic means, aren`t the children in the same home? I think you have right that in some cases, the children are hold without this, that some couples keep this strict apart from the children, bless them!
    But unfortunately not all are, maybe CDD ( Christian DD) more often are including childrearing in this concept.
    I read some dreadful stories from one called himself Winternute, you get sick when you read it. I felt a sort of relief though when he told about himself in “Who is Winternute”, there was a huge separate between his stories and his privacy when it came to his child, fortunately.

    ~~~~~~~~

    Nope. DD has nothing to do with children. The fact that some pervert thinks that it does changes nothing. I imagine that if there were NO DD sites on the net and no-one had ever heard the term, there would STILL be people like him.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "I disgree with you in that DD has happened from the time history was documented , if you mean by that about DD as something that was common and practising in every societies.
    The man was the boss and the wife submit to him, but it has never been common that the husband actually spanked her. I think that is a lack of knowledge and a lie.Please Caro, I don`t say that you are I lier now, there are a few people more than you that claims that as a truth, but I don`t believe it."

    ~~~~~~~~

    Well let's just say that there are records that go back to the ancient civilisations that gave husbands ownership of their wives and the right to 'beat' them. I don't say that every husband DID this, but it was certainly much more socially acceptable and quite well documented, and right up until the 1970s courts in America and Britain were upholding the right of a man to spank a wife who got out of line. If you want details on the laws and records in question you have only to ask. I should also point out that I don't agree that this should be governed by law and I think it should be a personal choice as do most people who believe in DD.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "I come from a country where the vikings ruled, and apart from the slaves, the women had much to say about in those societies and had much influence.( mayne not a good influence, always)"

    ~~~~~~~~

    Actually once women in Viking society got married, they automatically lost all status and rights in law and society although as widows they could regain them. As I understand it there is currently at least one Scandanavian state that restricts the choice women to stay at home and raise their children by imposing a higher taxation rate on husbands whose wives do not work. To my way of thinking this is a kind of reverse discrimination.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "I don`t doubt you about this in some homes, but I am a bit surprised that you claim this to be happening as one rule over the whole line and in every home."

    ~~~~~~~~

    I don't claim that and never have. I have in fact said that the reverse is true.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    I read that article on a cdd - website, I try to paste it over on this website. He and Leah K tries to make this suit the bible, but not in a convincing way. I have not said that you or your friends claims it to be biblical, and I think that is more honest."

    ~~~~~~~~

    I still don't think that Leah kelley says DD is biblical. She simply says that she feels that it is bioblical for the husband to take the leadership role.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "How successful is it really for every exerciser of DD? In the long term, not at least."

    ~~~~~~~~~~

    How do you know this? There sem to be plenty of couples around who have been happily practising DD for many years and with good results. It could however be that, after a while, they have reached their goals and don't NEED to practise it any more, which would suggest more than ever that it works for some people.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    10: Read the article of “Ned” and Maria” and you se something else, or read from Leah K. They say something else than you. But I agree in that it is not at all biblical.

    ~~~~~~~~~

    Please read the opening page and articles of the Leah Kelley website. It answers, among other things, your concern that it is not consensual, that children are involved, and your remarks about whether she says it is biblical. As i said earlier, she reiterates that the headship of a husband IS biblical but she does not say that the bible directly mentions the spanking of wives.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "Sex in marriage is not at all against the bible, you have right in that,in fact it is highly recommended, as the opposite to from without marriage."

    ~~~~~~~~

    Actally, the bible does not say that sex oputside marriage is wrong. It says that ADULTERY is wrong, which is something quite different.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    " I do stay away, Caro, but I had to se what is was first, didnt` I?"
    How could I know otherwise?

    ~~~~~~~~

    I understand this, but now that you have, why is it that you feel the need to deride and interfere with the private and intimate lives of other adults as if they cannot make choices for themselves or should not have this right?

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "Live your life as you pleases."

    ~~~~~~~~

    As should be the right of every adult provided that their choices impact no-one else.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    "But for the young people: there are a price to pay for everything, be aware!"

    ~~~~~~~~

    There is a price to pay for everything that we do, but we have to find this out for ourselves as we grow into maturity and adulthood.. Other people cannot do this for us.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-05-11 04:45 · #

  176. I do not have any interests in interfering in others life. This is internet, here we are anonymus, at once while we quit posting here we are totally quit in every ways.
    Internetlife is not a real life,
    but you can show your opinions and receive others.
    This topic is not a private topic, then it would be something else.
    There goes easily to much time sitting on internet, but the real life is without internet, in my opinion.
    Sorry, but I believe that Dd is a sexual perversity,and build on lies.
    I do not think that what is normal for some always are normal.
    What if you want to cut your partners leg ,and say it is normal to me, then it it normal? No.
    I came over that example on my prew post,just like that, trying to find something else, I am free to read and react just the way I want, but it wasn`t my purpose to find that example.
    I got furious, spontanually,and i think that was a healthy reaction,it was an honest reaction coming from my heart.
    And I know my heart, that is importent to me.
    What you wrote about the vikingwomen may be partly right,but the truth is that many of them had much to say in the real life.
    We had about vikings in school!
    "Trellene"= the slaves was treated terribly. as bad as your negroslaves, but it was thousand years ago, not 50-200, as in USA.

    I do respect your opinion about people doing what they want as long as they dont hurt others,
    and I never meant to say what others shall do.
    I say what I mean about it as a subject, but are not convinced that everybody is so very happy always as you may say. I think may be some struggles and it physically hurts a lot, don`t it.
    Some of this guys may not be good guys, even thatmay be some are.
    Someone may be loving guys, but i quit believing in St.Claus a while ago, so I dont think everything is happiness in these relationships.
    Where there is hitting it can`t be all that glorious, som says spanking is not hitting, but it has to be.
    There may be some benefits coming out of DD for some.
    I dont interfere in them, because I dont know anybody, and dont know how I would react either.
    I dont judge or despice.
    My nature is like this,I always got
    hurt and angry and it offends me when somebody hits someone.
    You have right in saying that we all need to find out ourselves and grow out to maturity,that is a truth.
    But it is so fine if we could avoid some of the big mistakeswe dis as young!
    I do not say that I have the answers or are giving
    them,just that I disagree with you that a whole life of experience doesn`t mean much, because I know really much that it does.
    I wonder why you Caro are so concerned about explaining and defending, do you have some prestisje to fight for or something.
    I have not, just shows my thoughts about this subject.
    Hopefully most couples in Dd are so agree as you say.
    But everything has a price to pay, we do not always know how.
    Interesting what you say about adultering contra sex without marriage.
    I became very surprised of that about up to 1970`es, men had the right to spank in some states in boh th Britain and USA. Sometimes i think I should be grateful for my country, you have much to struggle with.

    — christian wife · 2007-05-11 13:53 · #

  177. I am a bit confused when you say "true DD relationships", Caro,aren`t people different and may have different way of opinions about that by DD`ers?
    They are not at all in your group I suppose ( I haven`t a clue what kind of DDgroup or your role in that,I only recognizes that you have a function in a group )
    Of course your several years of experience must give you much information and knowledge.I have been a bit unsure of your competance on the foundation of neutrality, I must admit.

    I regret a bit of the words liar and cheater that I used, but confess that I believed you were lying at that time, and is thinking that it was understandable.
    It was because you denied that what a certain pastor wrote in an article, and I rendered the first lines word by word,then you said you maybe didn`t read that particularly article, which is very strange, because it was not difficult to find it.I got a bit upset about that. You goes out very strongly and say this is like this and that is not like that, and you denied something that actually stood written. And that Ned ,as his name are, he was anonymus at first in this article tried to make it seeems as CDD was Gods will also by scripture. But you denye everything I say automatically.
    I still say that it was not wise to use those words, but I truelly believed that you lied, by then.
    Now I don`t care rally.
    I don`t pretend to know everything about DD, but it is impossible for me to buy everything every different promoters says about it.
    May be I should not have posted here before I had researched more, but this has also been a sort of research, in a way.

    You have right in that I have not described properly about things that I have said, -that is true.
    Some ( not all) of the reasons
    is that it has been a huge job to translate, and your looong postings like one terrible long year.
    I cannot use that much energy on this and I dont intend to answer every one of your many points you are coming with.
    I draw a limit when it comes to answer way to long postings. But i wish I used a bit more work in some of my insists.
    I think you may be also thinks that this i a bit exhausting to continue on this dialogue with me any further now.
    I think you have a dominating way to go on, and act a bit like as this is one of your groups, which it isn`t.
    As I said before, the overheading of this topic is like the first posting on this topic, "abuse in another name".
    That you felt a need to describe the difference between abuse and DD may be fair enough.
    But there may exist some not "true DD`ers" out there somewhere, too.

    — Christian Wife · 2007-05-11 21:23 · #

  178. I might be a bit overdoing when I say DD is a sex. perversion, but what makes me think at this like something perverse, (-sexual pervers. might not describe it quite correcctly),-is the ritualized thing.
    That strengtenth the imagine of it as something perverse or unhealthy.

    — Chr. W. · 2007-05-12 02:58 · #

  179. I have tried to read the prewiew postings from april-06, it is actually a year since this discussion was started on this board.
    Before my first posting here i had tried to read the whole dialogue or what you call it, but was unable to read it properly ( language)
    Since my exercising on this topic with the language has increased a bit by posting here, it was easier,but not that easy.
    But I got the main picture I think, and it is about like this:
    Caro is accusing Marjorie for being dishonest, and so on,like it it was the most worse sin in the world to blog under false pretences on a DD blog, as she and some DD-ers called it.
    I must ask; Are there no other people that have been treated not very nicely in this world than this people?
    I may be think that there are a few.
    Caro said that M called herself a liar, but did she really? She said that she had lied, that is something different. As intelligent as Caro seems she should see that.
    I had some mixed feelinga about M using words like mentally disorders towards Caro and so one, but I think that she asked for forgiveness about it after a while.
    What a messed convarsation it became ,it seemed like C tried to give M a chanse to stop posting before it went to far,with her dignity saved , but Marjorie was hurted!
    Therfore she couldn`t stop, it is like a bird is whispering this into my ears. it is a stomach- feeling.
    And Caro that accused M for false pretenceses, when did she came out with the fact she was into Dd- groups?
    It seems hypocrasy in my eyes.
    Marjorie became tired and then you may not always say wise things, the conversation got worse and worse. For her, but also for caro and " adult woman" .
    I am not quite sure, but I think most worse for Caro and the others though it seemed like they "won" the "fight".
    This is my peronal opinion.
    Why?
    Because you did not see that she, M, was hurt by Caro`s first posting, -words ( you are clever with words, could be a laywer)
    and Caro and co. showed a great lack of kindness and was so hard hearted on her.
    It`s like many others that are in minors , thinking they are the only people in the world that needs symphathy.
    It was a totally lack of emphathy and insight in Marjorie, and yes, you acted like bitches towards her.
    Why do you think that it is only you that need understanding and com
    passion?
    I see a picture of huge selfishness and lack of emphaty here.
    I read that one of the benefits for women living in DD relationships is growing up to maturing, but I don`t believe it after this.
    A mature person has emphaty and insight in other people generally, not only for one group, so I don`t believe in this paricualle benefits by this examples.
    It is painfully reading.
    It was because of this things I begun posting here, even if I did not have the whole picture at first.
    I don`t understand everything even now, maybe read more later.
    But the main picture is there, misunderstandings that seems purposely and so on.
    It don`t convince me about it`s " honest pretenceses", you might say.
    Only some reflections a devaluation from me.

    — Christien Wife · 2007-05-13 11:12 · #

  180. I think I will leave this theme -Dd_alone, it does not deserve another more intention.
    I found it is like this ; In Daniel 5,5 when the finger came out and wrote on the wall, Daniel read this for the King Belshazar:
    ME-NE,ME-NE,TE-KEL,U-PHAR-SIN.

    TE-KEL: "Thou art weighed in the balances, and are found wanting".

    Or as my son describing some subjects; "like a fart in the wind."

    And also this, it is the spirit of the DD, it has nothing in common with the spirit of The Lord, with Christ.

    My evaluation on this topic as said in prew post yesterday
    tells me all I need to find
    ( I am neither ecpecially fond of using others weaknesses against people as dysleksi for instance,as done in June -06 )

    Reapetedly; DD as sex perversation or not,
    read this I find on a DD site; "someone feel their loved by hearing nice whispersing in the ears from whom their love, i want to be spanked,"
    so see and judge by your self.
    But it is something with the spirit of DD that stinks.








    — Chr. W. · 2007-05-14 00:54 · #

  181. To many people the buttocks are part of their sexual anatomy. Just like the breast etc. The buttocks is covered with fat/flesh more then the breast or other parts of the body. That is why it needs to be stimulated harder for sexual arousal. This goes along with the entire fantasy that goes along with the spanking. Spanking is a sexual stimulator for couples you can add all kind of religous things from the bible it is SEXUAL.
    Many women claim this is the hardest thing to come to terms with the deep desire for discipline. Is it an emotional desire or really sexual? The fantasy usually consist of being punished for doing something naughty. So some women need it alot that to me is where the manipulation part comes in. Some not all women want it so badly they compromise and use DD as an offering, other men enjoy being in control along with being abusive mental/physical.
    Christien Wife is very straight in the way she says it like she sees it. I respect that, she cannot be bullied. I think it is wonderful that younger women today know who they are sexually except they are young and should not be making such profound decisions at such a young age.
    I am glad to see women like CW stand up for what is right.

    — Ella Bella · 2007-05-14 10:15 · #

  182. I commend your courage to stand up to bullys. This DD freedom of choice is a bunch of garbage. M attempted to show logical & realistic reasons why promoting DD was dangerous. These women who claim to be religous church goers did not even care about other women being hurt. What kind of concerned religous people are they. Concern and doing what is right only applies to what suites their agenda. I commend you I wish M would stop by. She would be able to see other women think she had a point.

    — Ella Bella · 2007-05-15 05:36 · #

  183. "I commend your courage to stand up to bullys. This DD freedom of choice is a bunch of garbage. M attempted to show logical & realistic reasons why promoting DD was dangerous. These women who claim to be religous church goers did not even care about other women being hurt. What kind of concerned religous people are they. Concern and doing what is right only applies to what suites their agenda. I commend you I wish M would stop by. She would be able to see other women think she had a point."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    Thank you Ella Bella. This is precisely my point.

    I think that you are absolutely right to commend those who stand up to bullies. It is for this same reason that I and many other posters to this thread continue to defend both the equal right of each human being to both free speech and the right to live their private lives in the way that they choose. If these rights are applied only to those who agree with your views or mine then we have the classic example of the George Orwell sentiment that "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others."

    With regard to the other points that you make, it is clear that you have not read the whole thread or you would be aware that Marjorie eventually acqiesed that DD is NOT "promoted" in the general internet community. By her own admission, the only way that you can find a reference to DD is to make a purposeful search for it with prior knowledge of the term and what it means. The likelihood of anyone accidently stumbling on it is practically nil. Ergo, it is only a 'danger' to those who deliberately search it out. The rest of Marjorie's DD 'knowledge' came of her infiltration of several private unlisted communities under what she fully admits were false pretences. Again, it isn't easy to find such a community - you have to search it out. As to your comments with regard to "church women", some people who practise or advocate DD are 'religious' but just as many are not. Similarly, the fact that you have made the decision that these people are being 'hurt' and are not in this way of life by their own free choice does not make it so.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-05-15 16:25 · #

  184. "To many people the buttocks are part of their sexual anatomy. Just like the breast etc. The buttocks is covered with fat/flesh more then the breast or other parts of the body. That is why it needs to be stimulated harder for sexual arousal. This goes along with the entire fantasy that goes along with the spanking. Spanking is a sexual stimulator for couples you can add all kind of religous things from the bible it is SEXUAL."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Absolutley. Here you exactly confirm what advocates of DD have said here about the erotic aspect of domestic discipline as applied to an adult intimate relationship. One of the greatest benefits of a DD relationship is the increase in sexual connection that results from both the physical and emotional effects of DD and spanking.

    _______________________

    "Many women claim this is the hardest thing to come to terms with the deep desire for discipline. Is it an emotional desire or really sexual? The fantasy usually consist of being punished for doing something naughty. So some women need it alot that to me is where the manipulation part comes in. Some not all women want it so badly they compromise and use DD as an offering, other men enjoy being in control along with being abusive mental/physical."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Shouldn't this actually begin with the words "in my opinion"? If not, then one assumes that you must either have experienced this desire and have "come to terms with it" yourself, or you must have made an in depth study of the motives and personal feelings of DD couples. How else would have you so authoritive an opionion on what "many women claim" and whose husband is or is not "abusive", despite their assertions to the contrary?

    ________________________

    "Christien Wife is very straight in the way she says it like she sees it. I respect that, she cannot be bullied."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Niether can I be or the other pro DD posters to this thread be "bullied" although plenty of people, including you and Christian Wife have tried.

    _______________________

    " I think it is wonderful that younger women today know who they are sexually except they are young and should not be making such profound decisions at such a young age."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    As I said in an earlier post, if these people are of adult age and can choose to have sex, get married, work for a living, vote, buy property and do all the other things that a legal adult can do, how do you propose to prevent them from making a choice about this? Even if you do, at what age would you deem them sufficiently mature to live their own lives?

    _______________________

    "I am glad to see women like CW stand up for what is right."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    As I am glad to see other women stand up for what they believe is right.

    ________________________

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-05-15 16:52 · #

  185. "I do not have any interests in interfering in others life. This is internet, here we are anonymus, at once

    while we quit posting here we are totally quit in every ways.
    Internetlife is not a real life,
    but you can show your opinions and receive others.
    This topic is not a private topic, then it would be something else.
    There goes easily to much time sitting on internet, but the real life is without internet, in my opinion."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Perhaps "interference" was too strong a term since, as you imply, what we say here is merely an

    expression of opinion and will have no bearing on what actually happens. However, DD is a way of life

    for many people and words can be hurtful and judgemental.

    ________________________

    "Sorry, but I believe that Dd is a sexual perversity,and build on lies."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    It has never been denied that a part of the attraction of DD is sexual. After all, it is something that occurs

    berween adults in intimate relationships. Whether it is a sexual "perversity", I suppose is in the eye of

    the beholder. If I felt that oral or anal sex or purely sexual spanking were 'perversities" then I might

    agree, but, provided they are practised privately and consensually, I believe these things are up to the

    couple concerned. I definitely do not agree that DD is based on lies and, although you keep repeating

    this claim, I do not feel that you have come anywhere near showing this to be the case.
    _________________________

    "I do not think that what is normal for some always are normal.
    What if you want to cut your partners leg ,and say it is normal to me, then it it normal? No."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I agree that the definition of "normal" varies from person to person, (I wouldn't regard leg cutting as

    'normal' either). However, in your previous post, you appeared to imply that "normal" had to be defined

    according to your views only.

    _________________________

    "I came over that example on my prew post,just like that, trying to find something else, I am free to read

    and react just the way I want, but it wasn`t my purpose to find that example.
    I got furious, spontanually,and i think that was a healthy reaction,it was an honest reaction coming from

    my heart."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I do not doubt for one moment that you reactions are real and genuine, but there are times when it

    seems that you do not have the same respect for mine.

    With regard to the example that you used, I just wanted to set the record straight in defence of a friend

    who loves and cares for her daughter very much.

    _______________________

    "And I know my heart, that is importent to me.
    What you wrote about the vikingwomen may be partly right,but the truth is that many of them had much

    to say in the real life.
    We had about vikings in school!
    "Trellene"= the slaves was treated terribly. as bad as your negroslaves, but it was thousand years ago,

    not 50-200, as in USA."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Agreed that it was a long time ago, but, at that time, as in most places, married women had no legal rights

    and this situation continued (wrongly I think) to some extent in most countries right up until after the mid

    20th century.

    ______________________

    I do respect your opinion about people doing what they want as long as they dont hurt others,
    and I never meant to say what others shall do.
    I say what I mean about it as a subject, but are not convinced that everybody is so very happy always as

    you may say. I think may be some struggles and it physically hurts a lot, don`t it.
    Some of this guys may not be good guys, even thatmay be some are.
    Someone may be loving guys, but i quit believing in St.Claus a while ago, so I dont think everything is

    happiness in these relationships.

    Where there is hitting it can`t be all that glorious, som says spanking is not hitting, but it has to be.
    There may be some benefits coming out of DD for some."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    What I was trying to say is that the basic tenets of DD as understood by people who choose to adopt

    these relationships say that it MUST be consensual and desired by both partners of the relationship. I do

    realise that there are some people who CALL their relationships "DD" when, in fact, DD is forced on one

    partner by the other, but this would definitely NOT be condoned in the least by the DD community at

    large and they would see it as abuse and try to discourage it.

    People choose it because it suits them, it works for them and they DON'T find it abusive, but this is their

    choice and they know that it wouldn't work that way for everyone.

    _________________________

    "I dont interfere in them, because I dont know anybody, and dont know how I would react either.
    I dont judge or despice.
    My nature is like this,I always got
    hurt and angry and it offends me when somebody hits someone."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    You have said among other things that people who practise DD are mentally ill, abusive, stupid, liars and

    sexual perverts. You have also made it clear that you believe that DD is an excuse for a man to hurt his

    partner. That is what makes you sound as if you judge and despise those who choose this way of life.

    __________________________


    "You have right in saying that we all need to find out ourselves and grow out to maturity,that is a truth.
    But it is so fine if we could avoid some of the big mistakeswe dis as young!
    I do not say that I have the answers or are giving
    them,just that I disagree with you that a whole life of experience doesn`t mean much, because I know

    really much that it does."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    As an older woman, possibly older than you, I do understand what you are saying. However, my point is

    that, however we might like to, while we can guide and advise as best we can, we cannot live our

    children's/young people's lives for them or make their choices for them. They comes a point when they

    have to go out into the world and make their own mistakes. If they are not ready to do this at 18 years

    old when the law says they have that right, when ARE they ready? We cannot protect them forever from the dangers of the world.

    ___________________________

    "I wonder why you Caro are so concerned about explaining and defending, do you have some prestisje to

    fight for or something. I have not, just shows my thoughts about this subject."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I just do not like to see a community of people with which I am familiar and in which I have good and close real life and internet friends represented, misunderstood and lumped together with abusers and sexual perverts in this way. Like you, when I see what I feel is an injustice, I react strongly to it and there does not have to be anything personal about it.

    ___________________________

    "Hopefully most couples in Dd are so agree as you say.
    But everything has a price to pay, we do not always know how.
    Interesting what you say about adultering contra sex without marriage."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    "Adultery" describes illicit sexual commerce with a third party outside your marriage or committed relationship. Sex before marriage, unless you are in a committed relationship, is not adultery, because you are not being unfaithful to your partner.

    ____________________________

    "I became very surprised of that about up to 1970`es, men had the right to spank in some states in boh th

    Britain and USA. Sometimes i think I should be grateful for my country, you have much to struggle with."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    This is difficult to explain. Wife spanking was not specifically allowed by the law in most of these places, at least in the 20th century, but neither was it specifically prohibited in law. It just seems to have been more socially acceptable and less unusual. There are records in old newspapers and court transcripts that show cases in which women registered complaints against husbands who had spanked them and in court the judge ruled for their husbands. By the same token. there the beating of wives causing bruising or injury was not condoned. I do not think that the situation was very different in Scandanavian countries at that time.
    ____________________________

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-05-15 18:12 · #

  186. "I am a bit confused when you say "true DD relationships", Caro,aren`t people different and may have different way of opinions about that by DD`ers?"

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Not all couples who practise DD do it in precisely the same way, but it is a very basic tenet of DD that if there is not full consent on both sides and one partner is being co-erced or forced into it by another then it does not qualify as DD, but is abuse.
    ______________________

    "They are not at all in your group I suppose ( I haven`t a clue what kind of DDgroup or your role in that,I only recognizes that you have a function in a group )"

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    My 'role' is that of a long term member in not one, but many DD groups. I have been impressed by the closeness, love and respect that abounds in these relationships and many fellow members have become my friends.

    ________________________

    "Of course your several years of experience must give you much information and knowledge.I have been a bit unsure of your competance on the foundation of neutrality, I must admit."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    From what I can see, you are considerably less 'neutral' than I in that you had made your decision against DD BEFORE you researched it on the basis of articles written by people who have had no contact or discussion with the people who practise it and have made no effort to substantiate their views.

    _________________________

    "I regret a bit of the words liar and cheater that I used, but confess that I believed you were lying at that time, and is thinking that it was understandable.
    It was because you denied that what a certain pastor wrote in an article, and I rendered the first lines word by word,then you said you maybe didn`t read that particularly article, which is very strange, because it was not difficult to find it.I got a bit upset about that. You goes out very strongly and say this is like this and that is not like that, and you denied something that actually stood written. And that Ned ,as his name are, he was anonymus at first in this article tried to make it seeems as CDD was Gods will also by scripture. But you denye everything I say automatically.
    I still say that it was not wise to use those words, but I truelly believed that you lied, by then."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I understand why you felt this way, but I have just gone through the Leah Kelley website with a fine toothcomb and I STILL can't find the article that you describe. I wasn't lying before and I'm not lying now - I simply cannot find it. I honestly do not doubt that it is there or that what you quoted came from it, and I certainly don't 'automatically deny it" but without seeing it in context, I do not feel I can comment on whether the man says DD is biblical or not. Usually when people claim this and I actually read an article, I find that the writer is not advocating DD, but the leadership of the husband in marriage, although in one or two places I have read that there are paralells between the original words concerned with the use discipline on a child and those used in the New Testament passages about wives. The most I have ever got from such a piece if writing is that it MIGHT HINT that wife spanking is acceptable. What I have never seen personally is anything on a DD group that claims that the bible says outright that a man should spank his wife. Without seeing the article you describe, I can't really say more.

    ____________________________

    "I don`t pretend to know everything about DD, but it is impossible for me to buy everything every different promoters says about it.
    May be I should not have posted here before I had researched more, but this has also been a sort of research, in a way."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    The thing is that, if you look at only the pro-DD posts here in this thread, you will see that they are pretty consistent and similar in what they describe and how they present DD. The same is true of DD communities in my experience and I don't think that there are many basic differences at all.

    _____________________________

    "You have right in that I have not described properly about things that I have said, -that is true.
    Some ( not all) of the reasons
    is that it has been a huge job to translate, and your looong postings like one terrible long year.
    I cannot use that much energy on this and I dont intend to answer every one of your many points you are coming with.
    I draw a limit when it comes to answer way to long postings. But i wish I used a bit more work in some of my insists.
    I think you may be also thinks that this i a bit exhausting to continue on this dialogue with me any further now."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I think that you make yourself quite clear on most points even if your style is a little different from that of an English speaker. However, I do think that your mind is quite closed on this subject and you find it quite difficult to accept that there are people who want to live this way and are happy and contented with their lifestyles and relationships.

    ____________________________

    "I think you have a dominating way to go on, and act a bit like as this is one of your groups, which it isn`t.
    As I said before, the overheading of this topic is like the first posting on this topic, "abuse in another name".

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    You have said yourself that when you read something that you feel is wrong, you instinct is to respond with passion. It is the same for me. What I see here is an attempt to prevent people from having freedom of choice and free speech on the strength of misinformation and generalisations. This is a matter of passion for me and I have responded as such. The DD groups aren't "my" groups and the decision to allow full and uncensored discussion from both points of view is not mine but the blogger's. Presumably if he had not wanted the matter to be put to discussion, he would not have approved any pro-DD posts. As it is, he has given both sides equal freedom to post their views, regardless of their bias. Since it doesn't seem to bother him to allow a two sided debate, why should it bother you?
    _____________________________

    "That you felt a need to describe the difference between abuse and DD may be fair enough.
    But there may exist some not "true DD`ers" out there somewhere, too."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I have already SAID that such people exist and in fact I read the posts on which Seebach based his "Abuse by any other name" passage and agree wholeheartedly that the non consensual and unnatural situations to which he refers are abusive. However, what I have tried to explain is that these are not representative of the beliefs of people in consensual DD relationships and DD people would say that they do not qualify as DD and should not be dignified with that name.

    ______________________________

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-05-15 19:25 · #

  187. "I have tried to read the prewiew postings from april-06, it is actually a year since this discussion was started on this board.
    Before my first posting here i had tried to read the whole dialogue or what you call it, but was unable to read it properly ( language)
    Since my exercising on this topic with the language has increased a bit by posting here, it was easier,but not that easy.
    But I got the main picture I think, and it is about like this:
    Caro is accusing Marjorie for being dishonest, and so on,like it it was the most worse sin in the world to blog under false pretences on a DD blog, as she and some DD-ers called it.
    I must ask; Are there no other people that have been treated not very nicely in this world than this people?

    I may be think that there are a few.
    Caro said that M called herself a liar, but did she really? She said that she had lied, that is something different. As intelligent as Caro seems she should see that.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    I'll put these comments down to your language difficulties and the fact that you have not been able to get the full sense of the postings on this thread.

    I'll just clarify as simply as I can. Marjorie introduced herself into this discussion by broadcasting on a public blog a biased and carefully edited version of two discussions that had occured in a closed private group that is excluded from all search engines and requires membership approval before anyone can read or join it. In describing the posts, she left out certain facts, embroidered others and claimed that she herself had made posts that did not appear in the discussion. She then went on to tell us how she had fabricated a completely false story in order to gain membership of the group, had elaborated on this in posts to the group over a period of several months, and had made two personal friends whom she dumped out of hand when she decided that she had had enough.

    She then used all this duplicity and dishonesty as a moral platform to tell us how terrible and bad the DD community is. I was honestly just floored at her nerve!

    Let's leave aside the little matter of how hurt these two trusting friends must have been (never mind Marjorie) and leave apart how many people she tricked into revealing private details of their lives, and deal with the matter of "lies" versus "liar". Since you want to indulge in a bit of the 'hair splitting' that you accuse me of, let me oblige. I think I said at that time Marjorie "lied", but in retrospect, several months of duplicity and trickery on that scale DOES qualify poor hurt Marjorie as a person who tells lies and therefore a, "liar". The way to avoid being hurt is pretty simple, a) Don't tell the lies in the first place - this was her doing and hers alone, or b) At least have the sense not only to broadcast them, but also to add to them in a post on a public blog. And no Caro doesn't see the difference between a person who habitually lies and deceives people and a liar.

    Yes people have done things that are as bad and worse, but I'm sure that you've heard the expression, "two wrongs don't make a right".

    ________________________________________________________


    "I had some mixed feelinga about M using words like mentally disorders towards Caro and so one, but I think that she asked for forgiveness about it after a while.
    What a messed convarsation it became ,it seemed like C tried to give M a chanse to stop posting before it went to far,with her dignity saved , but Marjorie was hurted!
    Therfore she couldn`t stop, it is like a bird is whispering this into my ears. it is a stomach- feeling.
    And Caro that accused M for false pretenceses, when did she came out with the fact she was into Dd- groups?
    It seems hypocrasy in my eyes."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Caro told Marjorie in her very first post to this topic that she was a member of the DD group from which Marjorie had taken the posts. Caro was also amazed at Marjorie's hypocrisy in taking the moral stand based on several months of blatant dishonesty. Caro was also hurt that Marjorie had falsely and publicly accused a personal friend of hers of being an unfit mother. This made Caro want to let the real story be known.

    _________________________________________________________________

    Marjorie became tired and then you may not always say wise things, the conversation got worse and worse. For her, but also for caro and " adult woman" .
    I am not quite sure, but I think most worse for Caro and the others though it seemed like they "won" the "fight".
    This is my peronal opinion.
    Why?
    Because you did not see that she, M, was hurt by Caro`s first posting, -words ( you are clever with words, could be a laywer)
    and Caro and co. showed a great lack of kindness and was so hard hearted on her.

    It`s like many others that are in minors , thinking they are the only people in the world that needs symphathy.
    It was a totally lack of emphathy and insight in Marjorie, and yes, you acted like bitches towards her.
    Why do you think that it is only you that need understanding and com
    passion?

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Odd that - I thought that Marjorie was pretty viscious, personal and nasty about everything from my husband to gay people - oh yes and she said I was a nazi at one point - but what the hell. but I don't recall calling her a single name or swearing at her once, whereas she did both to me in almost every post that she made.. Considering what I wanted to say at times, I thought that I was pretty restrained. Of course we musn't forget that only Marjorie has feelings so it she can walk over and grind into the ground,
    my integrity, my feelings, my family, my religious and political beliefs and my character and that's all hunky dory because I'm made of stone.

    __________________________________________

    I see a picture of huge selfishness and lack of emphaty here.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Me too - and all of it from you and Marjorie who don't seem to be able to comprehend that anyone can enjoy a life that differs from yours.
    ________________________________________

    "I read that one of the benefits for women living in DD relationships is growing up to maturing, but I don`t believe it after this."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Ah, but did you believe it before?

    I would suggest that you reserve judgement on that until you get you talk to someone who is IN a DD relationship, although honestly, I don't hold out much hope because you have made it perfectly clear that your mind is completely closed on all fronts. I also don't find it terribly mature to call people names, suggest that they are mentally ill, child abusers etc etc because they don't agree with your personal views. My feeling is that you should examine the question of your own 'maturity' before you attempt to judge anyone else's.
    ________________________________________

    "A mature person has emphaty and insight in other people generally, not only for one group, so I don`t believe in this paricualle benefits by this examples".

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Exactly - and you have neither empathy nor insight in this matter and clearly no interest in opening your mind enough to gain any. I rest my case - (and no I am not a lawyer).
    ______________________________________

    "It is painfully reading.
    It was because of this things I begun posting here, even if I did not have the whole picture at first.
    I don`t understand everything even now, maybe read more later"

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I think that you desperately need to read more both on this blog and elsewhere because you are seeing only half the picture.
    ________________________________________

    "But the main picture is there, misunderstandings that seems purposely and so on."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Perhaps it your language difference, but it is pretty clear that you haven't understood very much of this conversation.
    ______________________________________

    It don`t convince me about it`s " honest pretenceses", you might say.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    I feel exactly the same way. I haven't been convinced by any of your arguments, especially your manipulation of the scriptures to suit your views.
    _______________________________________

    "Only some reflections a devaluation from me"

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Yes. I'm totally disappointed that there seems to be no capacity on your part to come half way and consider the possibility that there might be two sides to an argument.
    _______________________________________

    Caro




    — Caro · 2007-05-15 21:12 · #

  188. I think I will leave this theme -Dd_alone, it does not deserve another more intention.
    I found it is like this ; In Daniel 5,5 when the finger came out and wrote on the wall, Daniel read this for the King Belshazar:
    ME-NE,ME-NE,TE-KEL,U-PHAR-SIN.

    TE-KEL: "Thou art weighed in the balances, and are found wanting".

    Or as my son describing some subjects; "like a fart in the wind."


    And also this, it is the spirit of the DD, it has nothing in common with the spirit of The Lord, with Christ.

    My evaluation on this topic as said in prew post yesterday
    tells me all I need to find
    ( I am neither ecpecially fond of using others weaknesses against people as dysleksi for instance,as done in June -06 )

    Reapetedly; DD as sex perversation or not,
    read this I find on a DD site; "someone feel their loved by hearing nice whispersing in the ears from whom their love, i want to be spanked,"
    so see and judge by your self.
    But it is something with the spirit of DD that stinks.

    Your quote from Daniel 5.5 accurately describes my feelings about your arguments. Full of unsubstianted opinion and loaded with personal insults (this is the part that "stinks"), but completely without substance, reasoning or proof. (weighed and found wanting). It seems that, as in your, "And also this, it is the spirit of the DD, it has nothing in common with the spirit of The Lord, with Christ" comment, you believe that if you say it, that makes it correct. However, I do not find this remark in the least credible, because, in my opinion, the fact that you you nothing at all about the 'spirit of DD' but feel qualified to comment on it in this way, illustrates that you know even less of the "spirit of The Lord, with Christ"

    I do not think that either you or Marjorie is in a position to comment about playing on other people's weaknesses, having seized on every available opportunity to throw an insult or a personal jibe whether it was warranted or not. Frankly, if you think that this type of behaviour is in any way 'Christian' or 'mature' then you have considerably more to learn than me. In fact, I have a disability myself and am not unfamiliar with human weakness and the problems it can cause.

    Since what you describe above is sexual rather than discipIinary, is you argument here against DD or against sexual spanking or both? Also are you sure you didn't read it on a spanking site - there is a difference you know - or hadn't you realised that yet? Anyway - let's say that you did know that this was a sexual situation - I could have sworn that earlier on in this thread, you said that you were open minded about sexual practises within marriage. So if somebody happens to find spanking sexually stimulating, how is that any more 'perverted' than, say finding enjoyment in oral sex? I mean - in your mind is anything that YOU don't like 'perverted'? If so, may I suggest that you open your bible to the verse that says "the marriage bed is undefiled"? Note that there is no addendum that says, "unless Christian Wife doesn't like it - in which case it is perverted and stinks". How about practising whay you preach and actually following the bible rather than playing pick and mix with just the bits that suit you?

    'Judge not lest ye be judged' might be a good place to start or maybe, "You have a plank in your eye--now remove it!"

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-05-15 22:20 · #

  189. What, now I know Caro is dilusional. M never agreed she just came to her senses about how it was a no win situation.

    — Marjorie · 2007-05-16 07:23 · #

  190. What, now I know Caro is dilusional. M never agreed she just came to her senses about how it was a no win situation.

    — Marjorie · 2007-05-16 07:23 · #

  191. "M never agreed she just came to her senses about how it was a no win situation."

    _________________________

    Marjorie,

    I stated only that you agreed with me that you had lied and that this was wrong. To confirm this, please read the following comments posted by you. There are others, but I don't wish to bore anyone by repeating more of the same:-


    April 11, 2006

    "I may have gathered information in a deceptive manner. It is how I use this informations that is important. I invaded their personal lives which was wrong"

    April 18th, 2006.

    "I did something I am ashamed of and joined a discussion group. I claimed to be a married woman in a DD lifestyle"



    I rest my case and add that if anyone is "delusional" here, it certainly isn't me.

    With regard to your comment about this being, "a no win situation", I am not sure what it is that you hope to "win". For myself I don't see this topic as a competition, but rather as a debate involving different viewpoints, as any good discussion should.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-05-17 03:05 · #

  192. Caro,
    You are a bully from all of the postings I have read on this link. You have intimidated every women who is apposed to DD. You are able to do this because you have are talented and articulate with your words, except you use this gift to throw back handed insults at other women and to manipulate what they say into something else. I wonder if you could maintain normal relationships with women who live NORMAL LIVES.

    — Ella Bella · 2007-05-17 04:28 · #

  193. Caro,
    You are a bully from all of the postings I have read on this link. You have intimidated every women who is apposed to DD. You are able to do this because you have are talented and articulate with your words, except you use this gift to throw back handed insults at other women and to manipulate what they say into something else. I wonder if you could maintain normal relationships with women who live NORMAL LIVES.

    — Ella Bella · 2007-05-17 04:28 · #

  194. I have not said that I don`t perfectly understand what I read, even if I`m struggling with the language-You were not sailing under a flag that told clearly from the beginning that you were as involved as much as you are with this DD groups!
    This seems to be your main interest in life.
    You only said that you were posting on that same topic as M, not about your deep involving.

    Were you honest to her then?

    And in which way were she doing that big damage and hurting other people if they are so happy about their lifestyle?
    What about your telling to her to ask them for forgiveness and bla bla bla.
    It was absolutely ridicilous, I have no respect for that comment!
    Who do you think you are!
    I think you were nasty!
    ( as "civil" as you are)
    Not everybody mean that DDers are holy cows or saints as you do!

    DD is evil and violent!
    It stinks or sucks or what you call it.
    I found out that Marjorie had right about DD.
    Sh or neither do I interfere in other peoples life because of that.
    But even if she had dead wrong, I do not repect the tone you used against her, and twisting of her words.

    I can respect and like or dislike some people, Dders or not Dders, it is the DDthing that I found as I said before-very wrong!

    It is my opinion I mean it of all my heart.

    Caro tells about "real DDers do that and not that", are they all alike?
    Are they all so righteous and just people when their ground is false?
    If some women says it is allright that women shall submiss in a wrong way on false pretences-
    in ways God never asked them,
    Shall I say I am agree then?
    Are they right just because they are women amd makes themselves agree in abuse.

    Pity you Caro, with your 111 points.

    It s you that shall prove your rightenousess about this odd thing called DD that I find more and more contemptible,- their links to site with toruremanuals and spankingsites, and links to master and slave for Jesus.
    I am sorry to say that it is something unhuman and monstrous in your way to act,
    Caro.










    There are so many people that stuggles and are hurting in this life because of many things- you are free to defend and react where you have your passion. says it is minly because people shall be free to decide what sort of life they wanr for themselves.
    There are so many other people in the world that suffers



    — Chr.W( and I mean christian!) · 2007-05-18 12:52 · #

  195. "Caro,
    You are a bully from all of the postings I have read on this link. You have intimidated every women who is apposed to DD. You are able to do this because you have are talented and articulate with your words, except you use this gift to throw back handed insults at other women and to manipulate what they say into something else. I wonder if you could maintain normal relationships with women who live NORMAL LIVES."
    ___________________________________________

    Ella Bella,

    If you wish to believe that I am a bully because I have tried to put the other side to a question without resorting to rudeness and personal attacks, then so be it. However, I am satisfied that I have nothing more than to respond to the words that other people have written, which have included numerous attempts to intimidate and 'shout down' anyone who holds a pro-DD view by means of personal attacks and threats.

    As for "normal", as far as I am concerned that is entirely in the eye of the beholder and there are many people who do not regard practioners of DD as "abnormal". However, to answer your speculation about my capabilities as a person, I do have friends and acquaintances of many years' standing who do not practise DD, so I suppose that this would mean that I AM capable of sustaining relationships that you would regard as "normal".

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-05-18 20:34 · #

  196. OK this is my personal assesment of Caro. She is an a smart woman who thinks she know more then the other WOMEN. She wants to control other women by making them feel inferior. She does this by insighting them the other women react in a negative manner this starts a back and forth with emotional undertone. Caro enjoys this it gives her a feeling of power. She needs this because she has none in her marriage. Caro only want to have friends who agree with her and give her praise. She will twist every word another person has to say to make it sound exactly the way she wants. So let it go as good women we can do other things to help women who need and want to be helped. Why waiste our energy on a person or persons who are blinded by there own brain washing and perversion.

    — Ella Bella · 2007-05-18 22:56 · #

  197. OK this is my personal assesment of Caro. She is an a smart woman who thinks she know more then the other WOMEN. She wants to control other women by making them feel inferior. She does this by insighting them the other women react in a negative manner this starts a back and forth with emotional undertone. Caro enjoys this it gives her a feeling of power. She needs this because she has none in her marriage. Caro only want to have friends who agree with her and give her praise. She will twist every word another person has to say to make it sound exactly the way she wants. So let it go as good women we can do other things to help women who need and want to be helped. Why waiste our energy on a person or persons who are blinded by there own brain washing and perversion.

    — Ella Bella · 2007-05-18 22:57 · #

  198. "Caro tells about "real DDers do that and not that", are they all alike?
    Are they all so righteous and just people when their ground is false?
    If some women says it is allright that women shall submiss in a wrong way on false pretences-
    in ways God never asked them,
    Shall I say I am agree then?
    Are they right just because they are women amd makes themselves agree in abuse."
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    I have simply tried to explain that the abusive things that you claim are automatically associated with DD are not a part of what the DD community as a whole would regard as acceptable. I haven't asked you to agree with me, to compromise your beliefs, or not to speak out about the way you feel, but I have asked you to consider that there might be two sides to this question and that not everything about every one out of thousands of consensual DD relationship is completely negative and bad.

    I don't agree that God doesn't tell wives to submit to the headship of their husbands because the words are there in clear and straightforward terms in several places in both the Old and New Testaments, but in common with the MAJORITY of people who are pro-DD, or at least the ones whom I know. I do agree that that the bible says nothing about th physical dsicipline of wives.
    ____________________________________________
    "Pity you Caro, with your 111 points."
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    All of my "111 points" form responses to posts by other people and all of them were part of a two way discussion which took up a small part of my life which I was glad to give up in the interests of justice and fairness.
    _____________________________
    "It s you that shall prove your rightenousess about this odd thing called DD that I find more and more contemptible,- their links to site with toruremanuals and spankingsites, and links to master and slave for Jesus."
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    I have already told you that these sites that you mention and are not sites about the practise of DD, but if you are determined neither to believe me nor to find this out for yourself then there is no way I can "prove my righteousness" in this thing in the face of your determination to be right.
    ________________________________
    "I am sorry to say that it is something unhuman and monstrous in your way to act"
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    How is it any more "inhuman and monsterous" for me to state my views than it is for you to state yours or for Marjorie to state hers? Why should I not defend what I think is right in the same way that you have?
    ________________________________
    "There are so many people that stuggles and are hurting in this life because of many things- you are free to defend and react where you have your passion. says it is minly because people shall be free to decide what sort of life they wanr for themselves. There are so many other people in the world that suffers"
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    That is what I have said all along - that all people should have an equal right to life choices and freedom of speech. This is why I do not understand how on the one hand, you can defend these fundamental rights across the board, and yet in the almost in the same breath say that certain people should NOT have this choice. This is why I reminded you of the George Orwell quote that says, "All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others", because to me when you say these things, it is rather like saying that people should be allowed freedom to choose if you agree with their choices.
    _____________________________
    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-05-18 23:37 · #

  199. "OK this is my personal assesment of Caro. She is an a smart woman who thinks she know more then the other WOMEN. She wants to control other women by making them feel inferior. She does this by insighting them the other women react in a negative manner this starts a back and forth with emotional undertone. Caro enjoys this it gives her a feeling of power. She needs this because she has none in her marriage. Caro only want to have friends who agree with her and give her praise. She will twist every word another person has to say to make it sound exactly the way she wants. So let it go as good women we can do other things to help women who need and want to be helped. Why waiste our energy on a person or persons who are blinded by there own brain washing and perversion."
    ____________________________________________

    Ella Bella.

    Let's look at this as it really is. Seebs opened this discussion with an entry to his blog describing some appalling things that he had read that were done in the name of 'scriptural' domestic discipline. At that point, I said absolutely nothing because I entirely agree with his assessment that (a) these things were disgusting and abusive, and that (b), domestic discipline, of this sort or any other, is definitely not biblical.

    Some time later, Marjorie chimed into the conversation with her opinion on domestic discipline. I won't go into the sordid details of how she formed that opinion or how dubious some of her statements were, but I responded by saying that there are thousands of DD (NOT spanking or Master/slave, or BDSM) couples out there who are in consensual DD relationships because they WANT to be, and from which they neither need or want to be 'rescued'. Marjorie and later Christian Wife and you then launched into a sustained tirade of fabrications, assumptions, (including, I might add, completely inaccurate ones about the nature of my marriage and faith) wild generalisations, and personal insults, to which I responded and continue to respond with a defence of the people whom the three of you are so abitrarily attacking. I am not responsible for your emotional and rude behaviour and I am not the one who has attempted to take exclusive control of the conversation and cut out the opposition by suggesting that Seebs should not allow pro DD posts. If I were in search of 'agreement' and 'praise', then why on earth would I be posting on this thread where the three of you have made it absolutely clear that you disagree with and dislike me for stating the other side to this question?

    As to your final remark, I am sure that you will manipulate my words into another attempt at "contril", but PLEASE, PLEASE, do exactly what you suggest and use your energies to help the very many women who REALLY ARE in abusive situations and REALLY DO need and want your help, and leave other people to get on with their lives in privacy and peace in whatever way they wish even if you do not agree with their personal choices.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-05-19 02:49 · #

  200. "I have not said that I don`t perfectly understand what I read, even if I`m struggling with the language-You were not sailing under a flag that told clearly from the beginning that you were as involved as much as you are with this DD groups!"
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    That is blatantly untrue since I have repeated many times right from the start that I am a member of several DD groups and have been for several years. And by the way, you DID say that you had not understood everything that has been written.
    _________________________________________
    "This seems to be your main interest in life."
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Not really. It is just one of many interests, both online and in real life that I combine with a full time job, a family and a busy social life.
    __________________________________________
    You only said that you were posting on that same topic as M, not about your deep involving.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    As I have said above, you are quite wrong in your assertion - the evidence is all here on black and white on this thread.
    __________________________________________
    "Were you honest to her then?"
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Certainly - a lot more honest than she was with me or the people that she deceived on various DD groups. Why should I not be honest?
    __________________________________________
    "And in which way were she doing that big damage and hurting other people if they are so happy about their lifestyle?"
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Lifestyle completely apart, you honestly don't think that it is hurtful and damaging to gain the personal trust and friendship of two women by lying to them and deceiving them for several months and then cutting them out of her life by means of yet another lie? If you really feel that this is an acceptable or moral way to behave, then I honestly cannot explain to you why I think that it is wrong.

    Although she was equally dishonest in her approach, I don't think that Marjorie had any significant effect on the DD groups in general or that she did 'damage' there. However, the way in which she completely misrepresented the posts in one group to suit her purpose was damaging and reprehensible to at least one woman's reputation. I thought, and still do think, that she needed to be called on that.
    _____________________________________________
    "What about your telling to her to ask them for forgiveness and bla bla bla.
    It was absolutely ridicilous, I have no respect for that comment!"
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    I would agree with you if I had made the remark, but I didn't say that or anything like it. You. on the other hand have said exactly that to me.
    _______________________________________________
    "Who do you think you are!
    I think you were nasty!
    ( as "civil" as you are)"
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    I think that I am a woman who will not stand by and see the happy relationships and reputations of other people lied about misunderstood and trampled on unchallenged. If you think I was/am "nasty", look again at your own posts and those of Marjorie, because it would appear that anyone who disagrees with you is construed to be "nasty", even though it is you who has been rude and unpleasant and, in my opinion unchristian and uncharitable towards other people in your behavior.
    ___________________________________________________
    "Not everybody mean that DDers are holy cows or saints as you do!"
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    That is just silly. People in DD relationships are just ordinary imperfect and fallible human beings like anyone else. They are neither "saints" nor "holy cows" and I have never suggested that they were.
    ____________________________________________________
    "DD is evil and violent!
    It stinks or sucks or what you call it.
    I found out that Marjorie had right about DD."
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    If that is what you think about DD then that is your right, (although I have to add that I consider the way that you have expressed this to be rude, offensive and a whole lot nastier than anything that I have ever said) but I do not have to agree or refrain from giving MY opinion because it differs from yours.
    __________________________________________________
    "Sh or neither do I interfere in other peoples life because of that."
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    That is only because neither of you have the POWER to interfere. However you have both made it abundantly clear that you would like to take over control of people's lives and force them to live in a way that YOU consider "normal". As long as you continue to do this, I will continue to defend their right to the same freedom that you consider your due.
    ___________________________________________________
    "But even if she had dead wrong, I do not repect the tone you used against her, and twisting of her words."
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Again that is your right, but I disgaree with your assessment and feel that it was Marjorie who attempted unsuccessfully to twist MY words.
    ____________________________________________________
    "I can respect and like or dislike some people, Dders or not Dders, it is the DDthing that I found as I said before-very wrong!

    It is my opinion I mean it of all my heart."
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Again, I have not disputed your right to express your feelings, but I consider that you do not respect the right of other people to disagree or to express theirs as Marjorie did not before you.
    __________________________________________________

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-05-19 04:07 · #

  201. We all should have freedom to live our life the way we want. There is a fine line when it comes to DD if a woman with your inteligence decides she wants this then she has used her freedom of choice. It is the women who are at risk of abuse from evil men who are a concern to other women. A man could manipulate the basic theory of DD into a relationship to physical/emotion abuse a women. Many women will do anything to be loved by a man.
    When you put it on a sexual level it is a fantasy which is private business. Those people leave it in the bedroom that is their business. So who is manipulating people's right to choose?

    — ELLA BELLA · 2007-05-19 08:01 · #

  202. Ella Bella,

    Many women (and men)make wrong choices when it comes to relationships of all kinds, and some geuinely need and want help to get out of abusive ones, but you still can't be the one to make their choices for them, and you still can't deny consenting adults that freedom of choice on the stength of something that MIGHT happen. Similarly, you cannot decide for other people that their relationships are abusive if they are happy in them and do not believe that they are.

    Their right of choice belongs to them, just as your belongs to you and mine belongs to me.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-05-19 19:57 · #

  203. Caro,

    I want to make this clear because it seems you have never interpeted exactly what transpired with the DD group I communicated with.
    1. It was not a group that I had to join. I did not have to write to the leader or what ever to ask it for ascess to join. It was a board like this one no person had to join. This site had many discussion boards that dealt with at least 1000 topics from womens sexuality to politics, and even knitting. The womens sexuality part had discussions from loosing virginity to menopause. The thread I had posted had some very animated women who posted daily The women did not only talk about DD it was about kids, breast cancers and even money problems.
    2. When I stopped posting I still thought about the lady I had spoken with. I was concerned she was doing allright. So that is when I found your precious site Caro. I never posted on that site I read a few posting it blew me away after I read the one I stupidly repeated I could not read any more because I was getting sick.
    3. This is almost 3 years old our back and fourth is over a year old. I let it go except want to know something it has gotten harder to access your groups. The board I was on has been pulled off the site so have many other DD boards. I am not the person who contacted any one so other people must have been has offended as I was or other women.
    Why do you want to argue with other women about DD when you could solely communicate with ladies who practice DD. This need you have to have our approval is interesting. I know your community would never agree with how I live my marriage so why is it so important to you that other women approve?

    — Marjorie · 2007-05-20 06:44 · #

  204. Caro,

    I want to make this clear because it seems you have never interpeted exactly what transpired with the DD group I communicated with.
    1. It was not a group that I had to join. I did not have to write to the leader or what ever to ask it for ascess to join. It was a board like this one no person had to join. This site had many discussion boards that dealt with at least 1000 topics from womens sexuality to politics, and even knitting. The womens sexuality part had discussions from loosing virginity to menopause. The thread I had posted had some very animated women who posted daily The women did not only talk about DD it was about kids, breast cancers and even money problems.
    2. When I stopped posting I still thought about the lady I had spoken with. I was concerned she was doing allright. So that is when I found your precious site Caro. I never posted on that site I read a few posting it blew me away after I read the one I stupidly repeated I could not read any more because I was getting sick.
    3. This is almost 3 years old our back and fourth is over a year old. I let it go except want to know something it has gotten harder to access your groups. The board I was on has been pulled off the site so have many other DD boards. I am not the person who contacted any one so other people must have been has offended as I was or other women.
    Why do you want to argue with other women about DD when you could solely communicate with ladies who practice DD. This need you have to have our approval is interesting. I know your community would never agree with how I live my marriage so why is it so important to you that other women approve?

    — Marjorie · 2007-05-20 06:44 · #

  205. I have not been giving any attention to it when DD-community is mentioned on this board, before lately. Then I suddenly realized it must be a kind of organized thing, a network or something with certain rules.
    Is that correct?
    If it is, I may be wiser when it comes to understand the express of “ true DD.”
    I am a virgin on internet, so there are many things that I easily neglect and that pass over me.

    You must forgive me, but I easily may get a bit confused when it comes to mixing certain themes.
    About DD and diverse “spanking sites”, for instance.
    The reason is : websites that is named as DD and CDD on Google, has links to spanking sites, they have spanking pictures and stories that always contains it.
    So it is quite understandable to connect this two objects for us that are standing outside, though they are also very similar.

    I am misunderstood if I gave the impression of wanting censorship of any kind.
    If I`ve said anything that looks like it , it must be about the agelimit.
    Something that I find far more important on that one, is that in fact that google has performed censorship in China, for users there, on instructions from the Chinese government.
    Our luxury problems in west is nothing compared to that.

    Childabuse concerns me more than DD –lifestyle-
    In fact this really concerns me, but DD don`t really concern me.
    But the fact that you find links to pervos from CDDsite, -not directly, but a link from someone on that site, has his own links to strict moms, parental discipline, etc, etc.
    expl: ” mother of 42, 3 children of 17, 15 and 12 or something) spanks when attitude…..They are shearing their glorious stories with others on internet and abuse their children in that way, too.

    What is next, selling their children to other pervos?
    That step may not be so far, as we know this also happens on internet.

    Repeating:- and this links you find on DD websites, but of course that is internet, one link to another and internet is something we want.

    May be I should avoid being to preaching and moralizing, but I`m a bit of an idealistic person, and think that the owner of a website has an ethic and personal responsibility on whom they let go on their website,which articelwriters and so one.

    So we all should have the freedom to live our live the way we want,
    - exept to be abusive to others, where goes the limit?









    — Christian Wife · 2007-05-20 22:33 · #

  206. Marjorie,

    You said:-

    "I want to make this clear because it seems you have never interpeted exactly what transpired with the DD group I communicated with.
    1. It was not a group that I had to join. I did not have to write to the leader or what ever to ask it for ascess to join. It was a board like this one no person had to join. This site had many discussion boards that dealt with at least 1000 topics from womens sexuality to politics, and even knitting. The womens sexuality part had discussions from loosing virginity to menopause. The thread I had posted had some very animated women who posted daily The women did not only talk about DD it was about kids, breast cancers and even money problems."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Yes I do realise that you were involved in at least one board on which DD was not the focus, but was just one of many topics of conversation, (although people on DD groups do talk about other things too). However, what intially drew my interest was your reference to two conversations that were unique to one MSN DD specific board was excluded from alll search engines and which you could not join (or read) without pre-approval from the managers. At first, although you explained later that this was not the case, it appeared from the way that you phrased things that you had posted on that board.
    _________________________________________________________________________

    "2. When I stopped posting I still thought about the lady I had spoken with. I was concerned she was doing allright. So that is when I found your precious site Caro. I never posted on that site I read a few posting it blew me away after I read the one I stupidly repeated I could not read any more because I was getting sick."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    The site was neither "mine" nor "precious" to me, but the people who particpated there were and are as important to me as any other friends and deserve to be treated as such.

    __________________________________________________________________________

    "3. This is almost 3 years old our back and fourth is over a year old. I let it go except want to know something it has gotten harder to access your groups. The board I was on has been pulled off the site so have many other DD boards. I am not the person who contacted any one so other people must have been has offended as I was or other women."

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Actually what happened was that last year MSN moved ALL their adult status boards, regardless of their subject matter a special adult platform called 'World Groups' where they continue to thrive. The new platform has extra entry criteria intended to make it more difficult for minors to access adult material and the move had nothing to do with anyone being "offended" by the groups.

    ____________________________________________________________________________

    "Why do you want to argue with other women about DD when you could solely communicate with ladies who practice DD. This need you have to have our approval is interesting. I know your community would never agree with how I live my marriage so why is it so important to you that other women approve?"

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    It doesn't matter to me in the slightest whether you approve or not. However, there are two sides to every question and both should be seen in a balanced discussion. You posted what I felt, and still do feel, was a biased and completely inaccurate version of a lifestyle that many of my friends and acquaintances actually LIVE. I countered your posts by explaining how a DD relationship REALLY works. As long as you and other people keep misrepresenting the facts, I will continue to to post what I know to be the truth. It isn't a matter of wanting to "argue" with you, but more of a case of wanting people to know that DD relationships are not as you have painted them. Obviously, not everyone will agree with me, and that doesn't matter at all, but at least they will have seen both sides of the question and will in a position to judge.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-05-21 03:16 · #

  207. "I have not been giving any attention to it when DD-community is mentioned on this board, before lately. Then I suddenly realized it must be a kind of organized thing, a network or something with certain rules.
    Is that correct?
    If it is, I may be wiser when it comes to understand the express of “ true DD.”
    I am a virgin on internet, so there are many things that I easily neglect and that pass over me."
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    By "community", I mean internet groups/forums that specialise in discussions on domestic discipline. There is diversity in some areas, but there are certain 'givens' that are common to them all. The most important of these is that DD MUST be a mutually consensual arrangement between ADULTS and that it cannot be forced on one unwilling partner by the other. It has always been my experience that any man who wants to introduce this when his wife or girlfriend does not want it is told that he cannot do this because it would be abusive unless she wants it too.
    _________________________________________________________________________

    "You must forgive me, but I easily may get a bit confused when it comes to mixing certain themes.
    About DD and diverse “spanking sites”, for instance.
    The reason is : websites that is named as DD and CDD on Google, has links to spanking sites, they have spanking pictures and stories that always contains it.
    So it is quite understandable to connect this two objects for us that are standing outside, though they are also very similar."
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    I can see how this would be confusing, because, although DD relationships do not HAVE to involve spanking, they usually do and since DD happens between adults in committed intimate relationships, there is often an underlying sexual element.

    The main difference between a spanking site and a DD one is that spanking sites are concerned with the giving and receiving of spankings for purely sexual reasons like the ones Ella Bella describes in one of her posts. Domestic discipline sites concern the use of discipline to enhance the relationship as a whole. One typical site describes it this way:-


    "This forum was designed to provide a safe and secure place for people of like mind to explore and share their experience and knowledge of a domestic discipline lifestyle. Although it is impossible to precisely define the exact nature of 'Domestic Discipline', because it means different things to different people, in terms of this site, we see it as:

    A fully consensual agreement between two loving, committed, monogamous, (usually)heterosexual adults, in which (most commonly) the male partner takes the leading role as 'Head of Household' (HOH) or 'Head of Relationship' (HOR). This may, or may not, include the introduction of a mutually agreed upon set of rules and conditions of conduct intended to promote connection and harmony within the relationship. These may, or may not, be enforced by means of a form of discipline, most commonly spanking, by the HOH on the generally female partner.

    We are fully aware that in an adult intimate relationship, any form of constructive control by one partner over another, especially one that involves the use of physical discipline, often has sexual connotations, and we do not exclude discussion of this element of the dynamic. However, this site is not about erotic role-playing or sado/masochistic pleasure, but about the serious and meaningful use of domestic discipline as a means to improve and enhance a loving relationship."
    ____________________________________________________________________________________

    "I am misunderstood if I gave the impression of wanting censorship of any kind.
    If I`ve said anything that looks like it , it must be about the agelimit.
    Something that I find far more important on that one, is that in fact that google has performed censorship in China, for users there, on instructions from the Chinese government.
    Our luxury problems in west is nothing compared to that.

    Childabuse concerns me more than DD –lifestyle-
    In fact this really concerns me, but DD don`t really concern me.
    But the fact that you find links to pervos from CDDsite, -not directly, but a link from someone on that site, has his own links to strict moms, parental discipline, etc, etc.
    expl: ” mother of 42, 3 children of 17, 15 and 12 or something) spanks when attitude…..They are shearing their glorious stories with others on internet and abuse their children in that way, too.

    What is next, selling their children to other pervos?
    That step may not be so far, as we know this also happens on internet.

    "Repeating:- and this links you find on DD websites, but of course that is internet, one link to another and internet is something we want."
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    I agree with you completely that children need to be protected from something that should concern only consenting adults, but I think that you will find that the spanking of children is discussed much more frequently and in much greater detail on sites which have nothing to do with DD at all. One example is the Lori and Paul website on which there are regular debates on whether children should be spanked with many of the posts going into graphic detail about childhood experiences. I have also seen many discussions on this subject on the 'Christian Forums' site and on the internet in general. As an experiment associated with this discussion I Googled the subject "child spanking" just now and found a huge number of sites, of which not one that I found had anything to do with adult DD. I understand that discussions in those places take place for the right reasons and their purpose is usually to condemn child spanking, but they are nevertheless open to ANYONE who wants to read them even if their motives are voyeurist and perverted, whereas on a DD site, they would not be allowed to happen at all. Let me give you some quotes from the rules of just a few DD sites:-

    1. " THE MENTION OF CORPORAL PUNISHMENT INVOLVING CHILDREN WILL NOT BE TOLERATED ~ This site is exclusively for discussion surrounding Adult Consensual Discipline. "
    ****
    2. From the Leah Kelley website:
    "Spanking of Children:
    We will leave this to other folks to argue over. It will not be discussed here in any depth."
    ****
    3. Please keep the mention of corporal punishment involving children off the board. It could be taken wrong by some and is not what this group is about. Thank You.
    ****

    Basically, all the DD sites that I personally know actively discourage and disallow these discussions and if perverts and child abusers want to find discussions involving corporal punishment of children, they wouldn't easily find them or even a link to them on an adult DD site or group.
    __________________________________________________________________________

    "May be I should avoid being to preaching and moralizing, but I`m a bit of an idealistic person, and think that the owner of a website has an ethic and personal responsibility on whom they let go on their website,which articelwriters and so one."
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    I agree with you, but I believe that, because DD groups and sites are designated as strictly "adult" they are a great deal MORE careful about who and what they allow on their sites than many "anything goes" non specific discussion groups that you can easily find on any internet search engine.

    With regard to internet restrictions in China, it wasn't Google who put those in place, but the Chinese Ministry od Information, who now censor anything they consider "subversive", including pornography, criticism of the government, and sensitive topics like Tibet and Taiwan independence. Since the Chinese government runs one of the most repressive regimes in the world, it is hardly surprising that they would want to control and restrict an information source in this way.
    ___________________________________________________________________________
    "So we all should have the freedom to live our live the way we want,
    - exept to be abusive to others, where goes the limit?"
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    I didn't exactly say that in my earlier posts. I said that consenting adults who WANT to live their private lives this way should be allowed the same freedom of choice as anyone else. Basically if DD is their choice and they are perfectly happy and content with their lives, don't feel abused or abisuve, and are not trying to force their choices on anyone else, why shouldn't they be left alone to get on with it? You will probably accuse me again of being nasty, but I'm convinced that if another couple enjoyed say, anal or oral sex and that wasn't something that you would enjoy or feel was healthy or natural for you, you would still respect their right to feel differently from you.

    A don't disagree with anyone who has said that there are women out there who are being beaten up, raped and murdered by their partners every day, but surely THESE are the women who need our help and support and not a woman who has CHOSEN DD as a way of life?

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-05-21 06:46 · #

  208. Forgive me for pass in here, but I find this need of yours to tell about two sides in this case,caro,seems to be a bit wasted. Why using so much energy as you have,
    - though it took me some weeks to understand what DD community means.
    I didn`t realize about that`s existens and still don`t know about it`s contain, which is not needed for me either.
    But it may be civil in certain or many areas.
    That may be a good thing, but for me as an outsider, DD com. means nothing,hopefully it is a good thing for those that are in touch with it.
    My expression has been from the whole thing, the mix of " all together" in what I found
    under the theme called DD on Google.
    And what I found didn`t seem nice to me.
    Not everybody find their pleasure in what I call" nice things" and I am not saying that they have to either.

    As i said in my last post, these parental/ spanking sites, i have not logged myself in on them, but seen it as an introducing on certain sites,- it made me sick,hurt and mad.
    And those were links from one link following another link.

    I am not at all sure that this represent and stand for the owner of the CDD site accounts, but it`s childabusive and the links started there.
    In those settings pervos are more easily free to expand.
    And then I think the owners of this websites without any doubt has responibility.
    We don`t have this kind of DD websites in my country,( our neighbour contry have a couple)- and of course I am stamped of that.

    Hopefully I`ve done myself more clear now.


    If I`ve had the knowledge about DDcommunity which was referenced a few times,
    may be the discusion had been more different from my point of view, and not been so rude and so on.
    But as an outstander it all appeared as the same thing.








    — Christian Wife · 2007-05-21 12:14 · #

  209. If you have ever been verbally abused by anyone, Caro,
    then I want to say I am sorry for some of my words that was rude.
    (just a feeling)

    — Christian · 2007-05-22 06:02 · #

  210. I said about submitting that we are not needed to submit in ways God never have asked, not about not submit to your husband.

    We are equal, husband and wife, but have different roles.
    I am for submitting to your husband in a marriage, and at the same time husband and wife are equale.

    I dislike that women manipulating their husbands and know this is a challenge for women, to stop manipulating -as men has their challenges ,- not to be abcent and so on.

    There are challenges for everyone, and God trust ud to manage them, and gave us all we need to make it.

    The husband are in a strong need for respect, they are vulnerable in that way and need support from their wife in that.
    Not all woman support their husband in a good way, and in fact may be most do not.
    Men need are in a huge need for womens, spouses confidence on them, and a good partnership with the wife, not that women counterwork them- to be at all able to make good descisions for the family.
    It is one of the the ways women contribute to the family, by being a good "helpmate", but sometimes this is a a claim to her in a wrong way, so she get tired , she is a precsious human being, not only a helpmate.
    It is a challenge to the woman to have wisdom.

    God command the woman to see to that,to submitin a good way, but as everything from God that He commands,as He also commands men in certain things,-and as we comes volutarily to the Lord when we get saved, -he wants us to do his will voluntarily, as a sweetscented and delighted sacrifice to Him.
    When we don`t, we have to eat the fruit of this in our lives.
    We all need wisdom, repetending and submitting

    Also in other areas,are submitting something God wants us to do for both men and women, as christians.
    We walk in Jesus footstep, and he washed the disciples feet as an example.
    - Adam in Eden, God blamed Adam, not Eve, but Eve has been mistreated for this ever since.
    Look at Pakistan where women gets corroding acid thrown in their face, the 17-year old girl stoned to death in Irak, the despice of women among us.

    Yes, there has been much unjustice done to men,too, and some by women, and I don`t like that either.
    I also think when you as a man don`t treat you woman good you are doing damage to your self, though it does not always seems like that—but to your one sole.
    But I think I know what God feels about woman mistreated.
    And there is a justment day to that,- as for all of us.

    DD may be one of the reactions to unjustice, but in a wrong way.
    I can`t believe it when I see that someone promotes that women shall not have the right to vote, in USA!
    If I didnt understood it wrong, and it was on a DD site!

    I will command you Ella Bella in this you wrote:

    "except they are young and should not be making such profound decisions at such a young age."
    That tell me about real compassion, wisdom that you learn through a life,own experienses,and care for others.

    — Christian Wife · 2007-05-23 05:42 · #

  211. Christian Wife,

    I realise that, no matter what I, or anyone else says, we will not change your preception of DD and you what you believe that it represents but that doesn't mean that I shoud cease to try. In that respect, we are very little different because I know that you too will not give up on what you believe to be right even though for you it takes a great deal more effort than it does for me.

    In the post preceding this one, you say many things that make me feel even more that you don't understand the way that DD works for the couples concerned and that you STILL see it as something that is always either forced on one spouse by the other or something that one spouse is manipulated into by the other.

    For example, you say,

    "We are equal, husband and wife, but have different roles.
    I am for submitting to your husband in a marriage, and at the same time husband and wife are equale"

    as if this were something that were not so in a DD marriage. And yet I have seen it written many times in DD forums that men and women are different, but equal in both worth and in the sight of God. While there is headship within marriage within DD, for those who base the headship/wifely element of their lifestyle on the Christian ethic, there is also full understanding that this is a two way transaction that requires a husband to love, respect and care for his wife. You also cannot seem to grasp the fact that a woman in a DD relationship is there because she wants to be and that she feels neither abused and subjugated nor 'hurt' by her husband. When judgement day comes, God who knows all, will know the difference between what is mistreatment and what is done out of love.

    Equally, within most DD marriages, there is an element of 'final say' which happens for the sake of peace and harmony if a situation CANNOT be resolved through discussion and mutual decision, but it is still the norm for couples to share the decision making process equally and sometimes for the wife to make independent decisions in areas in which both partners agree that she is the best qualified.

    I have read many articles on why Jesus washed his disciples' feet, and most interpret this action in as a reminder by Jesus that, while some men may be in a position of greater power and authority than others, no man is greater than God and we are all equal in His sight. I have never seen anything that suggests that this had anything to do with submission and I don't believe that it has.

    In the case of Adam and Eve, I agree that God did not lay blame on one gender over the other, but a part of the fate of womanhood was this:

    "16.Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

    Women in Iraq and in other patriarchal societies are the victim of the cultural and legal systems of those states and do not have the freedoms or equality that human rights demand or the right to any choice in the course of their lives. It does NOT follow that people in DD relationships, who DO have choices, condone this kind of abuse. I don't know where you read that that women should not have the vote, but it is not something that I have ever read on a DD site.

    "except they are young and should not be making such profound decisions at such a young age."
    That tell me about real compassion, wisdom that you learn through a life,own experienses,and care for others."

    What I want to know is how a young person who has reached legal adult age will, "learn through a life,own experienses" when you and Ella Bella want to withold from them the right to these experiences because they are too young to make such "profound decisions". I am not saying that we cannot advise, guide and caution, as parents and older people should, but my point is that, at the end of the day, this is ALL we can do, unless we want to raise the age of legal consent for every life changing decision that a young person might possibly get wrong. Also, surely, if you take control of the life of an inexperienced adult and make these decisions for them, you will just be left with a human being who is older in years, but not in experience.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-05-23 19:00 · #

  212. I just wanted to address the question of DD sites that you say have links to others that condone child abuse. May I ask you to begin with how it is that you know that these links lead to that kind of site if you did not follow them to find out? Was there something in the links or descriptions that suggested this?

    For myself I have never encountered such a link on any DD site and. along with most people I know, whether or not they practise or advocate DD, if I did find such a thing, I would report it to the group platform concerned, who would at the very least delete the group and at the most report the owners and the poster of the link to the authorities.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-05-23 19:16 · #

  213. Christian Wife,

    I admire your command of the English language you write with such a poetic & logical touch. My thoughts are with everything you say. Women who practice & Preach DD do not want to see the other side of how much this DD could hurt women or them. It gets me so upset. Thank you for speaking your mind.
    Marjorie

    — Marjorie · 2007-05-24 10:14 · #

  214. Marjorie,

    I entirely agree that Christian Wife's use of English is more than adequate for the purpose of putting across her meaning and I have said so several times during the course of our conversation.

    However, I am somewhat taken aback that you should accuse anyone else of failing to see the other side of this question when it is YOU who have consistently insisted that there can only one side and that has to be yours.

    I have NEVER, EVER said that there is NO POSSIBILITY that something given the name of DD couldn't be misused in a harmful way. I have just tried to explain as a person who has extensive personal knowledge of the DD community that MOST people are in these relationships because they have made this choice mutually as a couple and are perfectly happy with the way they live. As such, they neither need or want to be 'rescued' by you. I have also tried to convey to you and to Christian Wife that despite your concerns, non censensual relationships that are described as DD are NOT acceptable to the DD community, are viewed as abusive and are actively discouraged. If you want to step in and help people in THAT situation, then I am behind you 100%, because these are the people who NEED help of that kind, but let's not pretend on the strength of one or two bad eggs that ALL DD relationships are bad.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-05-24 14:15 · #

  215. Caro,
    Same arguement a different day. We all know you by now the work SAVE is not what you want. I just don't want this crap introduced to the wrong person. Know what you have no CONTROL over how I feel Or do I how you feel about this subject.

    — marjorie · 2007-05-26 07:10 · #

  216. Marjorie,

    Yes, it is the "same argument a different day", because that it what this discussion has been all about and continues to be about.

    You are wrong in your assumption that I do not want to see women in GENUINELY violent relationships saved from these. In America alone reported cases of this type run into millions per year, which suggests that there is a huge call for help in this area. However, what I don't understand is why you want to direct your energies into 'rescuing' women who are happily living their lives in the way that they wish,when there are so many women in very real and tangible danger.

    As I have said above, although all of the odds are heavily stacked against it, it is just REMOTELY possible that a woman without effective powers of understanding might stray into one of the DD sites and make a wrong decision about the direction of her life, but the odds that she will never hear of DD but will STILL chose a partner who is violent towards her are clearly much greater.

    I realise that we don't have "control" over each others feelings and I'm glad that we don't, because this means that, unlike some people, we both have the luxury of free and uncensored speech.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-05-27 04:47 · #

  217. I am not saying that those blogs that is referenced on one of my prew posting are people who are members in DD community ( what that may be), which I don`t know. May be some are but are not discussing this on other sites. That is not what I want to say. I tried to explain how easy it is to mix things together and how overwhelmed by expressions you easily get on this sites you find when you google Domestic discipline. And for outsiders it can be difficult to apart things from each other.
    I find it quite possible that some that practise DD would react the same way as me when it comes to some of this blogs and sites as I now show below.
    And they are only links from other links started at Leah Kelley`s site, not a main link from her site.
    But let me first give you some instructions to whom of you that may be interested to check this out, may be you`ll look at it in a bit different way than me.

    Leah Kelley has got a new lay out on her website since the first time I visited her website.
    It looks better but contains the same:
    Instructions:
    At the top you find this; on the first one of 2 lines: Entry, CDDhome , Cdd store, CDDnews and blogs, CDD articles- which thete are there are 9 articles, then you find HOH connection, Leahs Corner ,Contact us, Links, guestbook , that is on the first line,

    on the next line you find this: Glossary, CDDforum, CDD authors, Heirbloom intimates ( a bit weird kind of dressing,shows how submissiv you are?), Herbal expressions, gleanings from history.
    On the first line under articles, you`ll find my often mentioned article, Domestic Discipline in a Christian marriage, written by Ned and Maria as the ninth of those artices. When I actually read that article a couple of months ago, they were anonymus, I think that he actually wrote it, because he is telling that he is a pastor in the article, but she is surly agree with him, I believe, since her name is on it. It is very easy to find it, but the article is huge, about 11 pages if you print it out.
    They are also into BSDSM , bondage, calls themselved Master and slaves for Jesus, while I think they should not have Jesus name on it.
    Under Hoh connection you`ll find someone that calls himself sir Don, ; ( strange how some people like to be “ sirs and “ dons”, that tells me something about feels small inside) Frequently Asked Questions for Men.- Below there is is a link: Go to sir dons blog.
    When you come there you can see how healmost looks like a little teddy bear, as an opposite to his “name” and writings..- Under his interests there are some links:
    Cdd,- D/s,- spanking,- Chr. Wives who submit, -submissive,- OTK

    When you goes to these sites, you`ll find these. I think this cannot be misunderstood, these mammies are shearing their spanking stories with others.
    What a cheap and disgusting way of prostitute, to sell their own children and taking advise from strangers, may be pervos.I am very mad at these mothers.
    But again; this is not a link coming from the main website as Leah kelleys, but follows link after link.
    It may be a bit untasty of me, but let me share with you their presentations of themselves,
    Exmpl:
    “Simone : I am a 42 yo strict mother of 2 daughters aged 17 and 15 and a son aged 12. I always spank displays naughtiness or disobedience. Attitude is instantly dealt with”. Reply

    “Strict mom 37: I am a single mom of two boys,aged 9 and 11.I am a firm believer in strict discipline and use bare bottom spanking as punishment.Would like to talk to mums only with the same interests.(Sorry guys) Lists”
    ”Interests that I recommend.
    Spanking,- spanking moms,-moms who spanks,- mothers who spanks,- chils discipline,- nylons”
    “Kristine: A mom who spanks. Divorced mom of twin daughters 14. Yes i'm strict when needed and spanking is used if deserved. Interests : Mom spanking, OTK spanking discipline.”
    “Wendy S's Blog Full Post View |:
    god do i love to spank bare behinds!
    Entry for April 30, 2007
    I want to say that I cannot blieve its May... (well almost)
    My 2 daughters are driving me crazy- I believe in strict dicipline and that exactly what I give.. would love to talk or IM other moms to share stories “
    Judge by yourself, I have taken my stands, it is at least inresponible, but very cheap to tell about their one children like this. I don`t think it is illegal, and they also no photos of thir kids.
    But this is one of the reasons I say thay I feel that people have lost their grips today, in our last days. So what is this strict moms , spanking moms crap, mothers who spanks and all that?
    May be it is not criminal but in my opiniom these mothers are criminal.


    — Christian Wife · 2007-05-27 09:59 · #

  218. Christian Wife,

    I followed the instructions that you gave and was finally able to find the article to which you have referred throughout this discussion. All I can say of this is that I don't agree with the author's assessment that physical discipline is "God Mirroring", or that it is REQUIRED by the bible for a husband to spank his wife, and I am sure that I am far from alone in this belief even among people in the DD community..

    With regard to your references to child spanking. I followed those through also and I agree absolutely that they are distasteful and unpleasant in the extreme. I have seen two way DISCUSSIONS on child spanking often on non DD sites on the net and usually there are advocates of parental spanking who go into detail about this. However, the tone of the comments on the 'Yahoo 360' searches that leads off 'Sir Don's Blog' are quite different from these, and there seems to be an unnessary and unhealthy interest and relish in the subject of child spanking for its own sake rather than as one part in a general discussion on disciplinary measures for children. The only thing is that these ads are an isolated few among many ads concerned with adult recreational spanking (not DD) on the 'Yahoo 360' network that came up when the certain words were put into the search box, and I imagine that 'Sir Don' was referring us to the adult spanking ads when he directed us there from his blog. However, although I agree that they are probably not illegal, I'm not sure that 'Yahoo 360' would approve of that type of ad when it concerns children.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-05-27 21:01 · #

  219. Yeah, I know I said that I'd stop posting, but I had to jump in here.

    Just so you know CW, I have been a member of a private DD forum for some time, a group concerned only with sharing stories about how husbands and wives have grown in their loving relationships with one another and to ask questions about problems in their marriages. I cannot account for what might be written on OTHER sites, so please do not take my comments generally. I am only posting from my own experience as part of the DD community in which I am currently involved. I am not talking about the Master/ Slave, BDSM types of relationships, since these are NEVER considered true DD relationships by those who practice it. Yes, they have elements of submissive behavior and may use corporal punishment like DD couples, but in addition to my community members, I have friends who are involved in BDSM relationships and BOTH say that they are entirely different. I am only talking about DD relationships as they apply in the traditional sense: man and wife practicing consentual discipline as a way to enhance their love and respect for one another while attempting to correct and improve destructive behaviors that threaten the relationship.

    Anyway, disclaimer out of the way, to the main point. From what I have come to gather on my board, talking to the members there, most DD relationships do not include children in the practice. DD's main foundation is consent. I was spanked as a child and I can attest to the fact that NO child consents to corporal punishment. Therefore, people who host the "mom's who spank" sites are not people practicing DD in its traditional form. I know for a fact that no one on my board spanks their children or hits them in any way. When we have children, we have no intention of spanking at all. This is not right in our eyes because it is not consentual on the part of the child, making it abuse. There are people who disagree with this, of course, but I can say that the majority of people who practice DD do not extend it to their children.

    I definately agree that there are a lot of trashy sites out there proclaiming themselves as DD sites but advertising things more along the lines of ultra-male-dominance-female-suppresive sites. When you do a google search, you come up with lots of different stuff. There are real christian web sites out there, but there are also "christian" web sites that state that Jesus only loves white people and that black people are the devil. Real christians know that that's not true, right? But if you told someone who was a member of that site that it wasn't true, they would probably be as adament that it was as you are that DD is "crap."

    I agree that there are a lot of sites out there distorting what DD is supposed to be, and that makes me very sad. But what is even sadder is that when we try to explain it the way it really is, as a loving action that SOME couples CHOOSE to participate in, you demean and disrespect us more than you seem to hate the misinformation. Please, don't kill the messanger.

    I really appreciate and respect the love you have for women, and I understand your desire to protect them. But I cannot stress enough that this is something that is chosen by BOTH partners. A man cannot say "I'm going to spank you whether you like it or not and I don't care if you don't consent" because that is abuse. Yes, there are probably some men out there using DD as an excuse to abuse their wives, and that is a horrible thing. That is why people like Caro are trying so hard to show what the REAL picture is. Women in abusive relationships should be given freedom and you are right to be an advocate for them. What I am trying to say is that there is a significant difference between abusive relationships and real DD relationships (not those that pretend to be).

    Beginning a DD relationship takes a lot of time. When a couple start out, it is slow and there is a lot of communication needed. They talk about what the boundaries are, what the punishments will be like, how they will treat eachother. I cannot speak for how other couples have handled this, but I will give you some examples from my own relationship:

    My b/f and I have agreed that I am the submissive one in the relationship. This is something I want to be because I grew up in a house where my dad was supposed to be in charge, but my mom was so much of a dominant that she made the decisions about everything. My mom was the one who decided to spank my sister and I, and I admit that some of those times could have been called abusive. I always wondered why my dad didn't stop her since he was supposed to be the one in charge, and it never felt right to me. So when I got in my own relationship, I wanted a man who would let me be submissive and who would help me to be that way. I am like my mom in a lot of ways, and I don't want to be like that. I'm scared of being like her and hurting my children. So I want him to help me be gentle and sumbissive to his decisions. That was one of our main foundations.

    Second was that he was NEVER allowed to spank when he was angry. We saw how this could potentially lead to abuse, so the rule is that if he is mad at me, he has to wait until he is not *angry* before he is allowed to spank. He usually sends me to the corner for a while (half an hour-ish) until he has a hold on his temper. He only spanks on my bottom, bare or covered, and NEVER hits me anywhere else. The bottom is the safest place on the body to be spanked, and it heals quickly. We also work with a safeword, so that if it ever was too much, I could say it and he would stop immediately. Those are for safety measures.

    We recently reevaluated what I am punished for, which really helped us. I am only punished for serious things that hurt our relationship. Things like lying, arguing unreasonably with the intention to hurt, walking out on an argument, or anything that he thinks could damage us as a couple. He doesn't spank for forgetting to wash the dishes, or not having dinner ready on time, or swearing. For those things, he sends gives me corner time or takes away one of my privileges like TV or the internet. Punishments are something that every couple have to decide together. The man shouldn't just spank for every little thing, or out of anger. For us, only the things that could damage our relationship are "spankable."

    There are also certain things that we discussed regarding how we treat one another. I am still his "equal" meaning that I have a voice in every decision. He doesn't tell me to shut up and always includes me in decision making. I am free to give my opinions and advice, but the final choice is his. That's part of my submission. I may disagree with the choice, but I always know that he heard my opinion and thought it over before choosing. I am to respect him, and not "mouth off." I have a bad temper, and when I get mad, I sometimes get really sarcastic and rude, which he will not tolerate. He sends me to the corner to think about how my words and actions hurt him, and to think about how I can respect him. He also respects me, listening to me, not yelling, never hitting me, etc. Respect is a key issue in our relationship.

    Anyway, these are just some examples of things that we discussed and agreed upon BEFORE beginning DD. They are things that we hold EACHOTHER to, mutually agreeing to help one another as we grow in love and trust. DD really does help build trust, you know. It takes a lot to trust someone to love you and keep you safe, and it takes even more to trust them to spank you in order to help keep you safe from yourself.

    Women in abusive relationships are not given the opportunity to discuss these things, or to agree to anything with their partner. That is the main difference. DD is a partnership. Both of the members must work together to make it work safely and in a loving manner. It is not about control or being able to walk all over your wife. It is about building love and respect for one another, while taking care of the part of every woman that wants to submit to her husband. (I know a lot of people will disagree with my prior statement, especially in this anything-you-can-do-I-can-do-better society, but I believe this.)

    Anyway, please take my experiences as they are presented: as an EXAMPLE of a DD relationship. I am not saying that this is how every DD relationship works, or that it is the best way. It's just how we do it, and rather than making general statements that you can pick apart and throw back in my face, I thought that giving my examples might be more helpful.

    My main point for this post was that spanking children is NEVER a part of a true DD relationship (in my experience in talking to several different couples on my community forum, I have come to understand this) because it does not involve the child's consent. Sorry I posted so much. I was really scared to write this, based on the angry responses given by so many people on this board. Please do not take my words out of context or get mad and yell about how my relationship is perverted or "crap." I am trying to explain it as an example, and have stated repeatedly how I respect your views, so please do me the honor of respecting mine. Thank you very much for reading my post.

    QS

    — QS · 2007-05-27 21:34 · #

  220. BTW, there is an excellent website by a couple named Digits and Maryann. They are a couple who practice DD in its "true" form and was one of the sites reccomended to me by my friend who told me about DD. When you're out there surrounded by the "garbage" sites, take a look at this one. There's nothing but love and respect between them. You can find it easily if you do a google search for Digits and Maryann. I urge you to check it out.

    — QS · 2007-05-27 21:51 · #

  221. "an unnessary and unhealthy interest and relish in the subject of child spanking for its own sake" rather than as one part in a general discussion on disciplinary measures for children. The only thing is that these ads are an isolated few among many ads concerned with adult recreational spanking (not DD) on the 'Yahoo 360' network that came up when the certain words were put into the search box, and I imagine that 'Sir Don' was referring us to the adult spanking ads when he directed us there from his blog. However, although I agree that they are probably not illegal, I'm not sure that 'Yahoo 360' would approve of that type of ad when it concerns children.

    Thank you Caro,for taken the inconvenience to check out, and I think we have pretty much the same point of view on this.
    When it comes to Yahoo 360, and approving this blogs i don`t know,it is a bit depressing that some mothers really do this.

    To QS I thank you for your post and I understand your point of view, and if you have the control and knows what you are doing,it is your decsicion and I am not saying anything.
    As I`ve said, I was a bit overwhelmed from the impressions, unable to apart things from each other, which is easy for "outsiders".
    To be rude or harsh is not a habit for me, but it happens!
    Thank you for telling your story.

    — Christian Wife · 2007-05-28 09:37 · #

  222. Thank you QS. It's totally refreshing to read such a simple and well balanced testimony for DD in the midst of a host of attempts to depict ALL DD relationships as abusive, perverted, non-consensual, BDSM, Master/slave, sexually orientated and anything else that can be dredged up to 'prove' that people should not have the right to choose how they want to live their lives.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-05-28 10:31 · #

  223. If anything that I have read I was to repeat on this board you would accuse me of snooping etc.. Well some of the so called disciplines I have read about are abuse. Men spanking wives infront of other people, or husband telling other people that there wife is going to receive a discipline. That to me is disrespectful to any women. I don't care if this is mutual or not. Know what my husband stepped in my garden and broke my favorite plant, I have asked him many times before not to walk in the flower bed. Maybe a good spanking would teach him to be more careful. I think not he appoligized he also saw how hurt I was that was better then any spanking.

    — Marjorie · 2007-05-30 04:17 · #

  224. You are right to say that some of the people who "practice" DD are abusive. No one is denying this. There are people who can take anything and twist it to their own purposes. Islam is not a "bad" religion, in fact for many it is very spiritual and beneficial, but the people who flew planes into the twin towers said that they were doing so as part of that religion which for some time led people to believe that it was "evil". The religion itself is NOT evil, but those people practiced it in a way that warped it into something destructive. It only takes a few people to make a practice that is actually good and loving into something abusive and corrupt.

    Personally my b/f has said that he will NEVER spank me in public, because it would be too embarassing to be beneficial and I would probably end up resenting him for it. I wouldn't necessarily call spanking in public abusive, but it is hardly a positive means of correction.

    As I said earlier, we use many alternative means of correction that are designed to help me think about the feelings of people that I have hurt with my actions. In the example that you gave about your husband, I can say that my b/f would certainly NOT spank for this. He would most likely send me to the corner to think about how my disobedience made him feel, and to come up with some ways of changing my behavior for next time. After my corner time, we would talk about it and he would help guide my understanding of the situation so that I fully understood how he felt about what I did. Knowing that I disobeyed and disrespected his wishes would be enough to make me sorry. The corner time re-enforces this by not only punishing my behavior, but giving me time to think about my actions fully. It "gets me back on track" so to speak, so that I am not sitting around justifying my actions (well, I didn't MEAN to go into the garden. It wasn't MY fault the plant broke... etc).

    You're right to say that sometimes knowing that someone is disappointed in your actions is better than a spanking. When I have broken a rule I know how much I have hurt his feelings by disrespect and disobedience, and my desire is to do better next time. Corner time and alternative punishments help to correct smaller offenses, and help me to think about changing my behavior for next time. And we ALWAYS talk about it afterwards. He does not spank for every little thing, but only for major things that could hurt us as a couple. I assume that you agree that a broken plant is not really going to hurt your relationship to the point of divorce, therefore it keeps it from being (in our book) "spankable."

    Abuse is a terrible thing, and women should be protected from it. But in consentual DD relationships, the couples take very detailed precautions to ensure taht it doesn't turn into abuse. Please understand that we are not sayng that there is no such thing as an abusive "DD" relationship, becuase sadly that is not true. But please do not lump the people who twist DD to their own abusive purposes with the people who use it in a loving, constructive way. There are many, many people who benefit from DD, who are not hurt by it, but instead strengthened in their relationships. In this way, it can and is a good thing.

    QS

    P.S.
    Just a side note, in DD relationships the man is generally not spanked.

    — QS · 2007-05-30 08:54 · #

  225. I am pretty sure Marjorie that there also are stories of abuse in DD, even though I believe that it may be some relations where there is not, however agree or disagree we can be.
    But Quiet Strength seems to be a girl that are rather clare about what she is doing and has the needed control, hopefully. She seems very sweet and anxious and her fiance may be is a good guy. One thing I miss here though is to be open about what if there are proplems with this way of life for either the man or the woman in such a relationship.
    I respect Caro saying people must have the right to live the way they want, she seems strong and able to hand many things, such as I respect you Marjorie when you comes out and say; maybe this is not only good and glorious all the time.
    You have the right to react about the examples you came out with here,a sound and healthy reaction.

    Where do they go the when they need help, when they may find out that this doesn`t work for them.
    I miss some will to admit that there may be could be some complications, and then I think when it does, they who are in trubble are very alone.

    — Christian wife · 2007-05-30 13:53 · #

  226. Marjorie,

    We've been though all of this sniping before and it got us nowhere. You don't want to be in a DD relationship because it wouldn't work for you, which is perfectly fine, but other people do, so let's just leave them alone to do what makes THEM happy. You don't have to agree or try to see it from their point of view but at least have some respect for other people's choices.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-05-30 16:57 · #

  227. CW,


    "Where do they go the when they need help, when they may find out that this doesn`t work for them.
    I miss some will to admit that there may be could be some complications, and then I think when it does, they who are in trubble are very alone."

    This is a great question, and I actually have an example as a response.

    When we first started DD, I was super excited about it. Never once did it cross my mind that "this might not work for us." Everything seemed to be going well, and I felt happy. Then a while back it happened. My b/f told me that he wanted to stop spanking because he felt it wasn't working for us. There were many reasons, which I won't metion here, but the point is that we stopped spanking.

    Like you said, I felt completely alone. I felt isolated from not only my b/f, but also from my online DD community. I had no friends to talk to about it, and I had no idea how to deal with it. We had agreed at the beginning that if either one of us felt uncomfortable with DD, we would stop. I had major trouble doing this. He wanted to keep the other elements of DD, including corner time punishments and him being dominant in the relationship, but wanted to exclude spanking specifically. It took a lot of talking together and time thinking about what went wrong before we went back to spanking. Now, we are in a test period, and I am happy with this, as is he.

    So, how did we deal with the sudden "I don't think this is for us"? That's a good question.

    We talked about it: This was super super important. Next to consent, communication is the most important factor in DD. We spent almost 2 weeks talking about what was making him uncomfortable, what I was doing, what he was doing, how it was affecting us, and whether or not DD was "for us." Like I said, it wasn't really DD itself, but merely the spanking aspect that was the problem. Talking about it together really helped us to reorganize our priorities, as well as understanding why we had chosen this.

    I talked to the community: After the initial shock of stopping subsided, I got online and talked to one of the women on my forum privately. She is the founder and I have always found her advice to be helpful and sincere. She helped me to look at his point of view, and encouraged me not to give up so easily. Talking to someone with an outside opinion really helps. I think everyone should have a friend or a board where they can get outside advice from people who might have experienced something similar.

    We re-evaluated everything: While my b/f and I were talking, we made a lot of discoveries about things that weren't really right in our relationship. For one thing, he was spanking too often (mostly because that's how I wanted it). Rather than for only serious stuff, he would also spank for broken rules etc. Since I am rather forgetful and occasionally break rules (...ok ok, more like "often break rules") he was having to spank every day. That made him feel more like a police officer than an S/O. So we changed that (I have talked about this in earlier posts). We also recognized that I was bratting a lot in order to control my punishments. That was something that would have to stop. There were lots of other things too, but I won't write them all down. But we re-evaluated how we looked at things, what the "rules" were, and worked to improve how we practiced DD before trying again.


    Now, I know that some people might not pick DD back up if they drop it, and most DD couples (like ALL couples) have problems now and again. But thankfully, there is ample support avaliable for those who do:

    Private DD forums (not spanking erotica/ porn ones) can provide you with a small network of people who have gone through most problems and who can supply advice and counsel to help any couple. On our board, the couples range from 19 (me...) to 60-something. There are a variety of experiences to be shared and lots of advice and help avaliable. One of the girls on my forum and her husband stopped DD, wrote about it and everyone supported her. She wasn't simply thrown out of the group because they didn't practice DD, everyone supported their decision while at the same time letting them know that if they decided to take it back up, there would always be a place for them.

    There are also a lot of really good articles about DD out there that couples can read. They explain different views on concepts of DD that are really informative and helpful. I've read a lot, and I do dissagree with SOME of them, but they still provide a different opinion that can be helpful in the "rough places."

    And, of course, if you love eachother your S/O is a great support. I don't know what I would have done if he hadn't talked with me and helped me through the problems. Yes, we've gotten back into DD, and are happily staying there, but after that time away from it, I know that if he needed us to stop, or if I did, then we could. It's right for us RIGHT NOW. It may be right for us to continue into the future, but for now we'll take each day one step at a time.

    QS

    — QS · 2007-05-30 19:51 · #

  228. Marjorie,

    I have never said, as QS has not said, that there are not people who who commit abuse in the GUISE of DD. However, what I have said , and will continue to say is that what these people CALL DD would not NOT be condoned in DD circles and would be RECOGNIZED as abuse. That is why I don't understand why you (mainly Marjorie) continue to bring up instances of abusive and bullying behavior, public humiliation and severe beatings, all of them non-consensual as if they were the norm in a DD relationship. I'm sorry, but they really are not.

    CW, with regard to your question about couples who decide to withdraw from DD - and even if only ONE partner decides that they do not want to pursue it, that is what has to happen - my experience in reading the groups has been much the same as Q.S's. In fact in this past week, a lady on one of the groups that I read wrote that she had decided that the concept of DD was too intense and would not work for herself and her husband. The replies that she received to her post were all in acceptance of her decision, but most also offered her the opportunity to discuss it further IF she felt the need. There was NO pressure to continue with DD and no suggestion that she wouldn't be welcome on the group if she wasn't practising DD.

    As QS says, DD relationships are constantly developing and under review by the couples, who participate in them and if something isn't working constructively or beneficially for the relationship, then it will be changed or stopped.

    Are all DD relationships perfect with perfect people in them? No they are not - they are just ordinary relationships between ordinary flawed human beings with ordinary ups and downs. Are they a magic formula that everyone should follow? No - they constitute ONE choice of lifestyle among many, and they would not work positively for every couple. However, at the end of the day, there are many people for whom they do work at the detriment of nobody else.

    — Caro · 2007-06-02 18:02 · #

  229. I have read this because I just discovered these religious wife abuse communities. The bottom line is that children should be removed from homes where this is practiced, and not given back until the parents divorce and then not allowed to have ANY contact with their hideous father. The mothers should have to have intensive counseling in order to EVER see their children again. Social services should be on these people like white on rice.

    — Mary · 2007-06-05 07:11 · #

  230. Thank you for your very direct and vehement response Mary. I'm so glad that you have read these posts, but perhaps you should read them again before passing judgment. Both Caro and I (and others) have repeatedly attempted to address some of the misconceptions in your post.

    First of all, although there are small groups who state that DD is condoned by the Bible (if not commanded outright by God), the MAJORITY of DD couples do not practice DD because of any religion. It is just those that do that have the spotlight online, just as those activists that burn down abortion clinics are given more attention than those who practice peaceful demonstrations to get their points across. I am a christian, as is my boyfriend, and I know several couples on my forum who are christians too, but none of us use the Bible as a foundation for DD. DD is practiced by couples who mutually agree that they want a relationship where the husband is in charge and the wife agrees to submit to his decisions, and yes, punishments for disobedience. They make this decision TOGETHER to strengthen their relationship, not to impose any means of "religious wife abuse."

    Why would any woman AGREE to a relationship in which her opinions were not accepted or listened to and in which she was routinely beaten for absolutely no purpose? The answer is plainly that they would not. That is why DD cannot be looked at as "wife abuse." Understand that no one is denying that there ARE cases of wife abuse that have links with DD, and that is a very sad thing. DD should NEVER be used as a reason to simply hurt your partner, but should be used to help strengthen the relationship by enforcing love and respect for one another. Consent is key! If you hear nothing else, hear that. DD is consent-- if there is no consent, it is abuse. I don't know how many times people here have said that, but it seems to bear repeating.

    Secondly, I don't really understand why you think the children of DD practitioners should be removed from their mothers. We have said that ALL real DD relationships exist ONLY between the husband and the wife-- no children are involved. I know several couples who have children, and they even state how at times they've had to postpone a punishment because they did not want their kids to be awake or present at the time. DD is very private and intimate and parents do not want their children to see it, just like no parents would want their child watching them make love. Some parents take a night to go to a hotel to have a punishment, so that there is no way for the kids to hear them.

    So, the children do NOT witness or even KNOW about their parent's DD, nor are the children spanked at all in MOST DD households. So why should they be taken away? There are no instances drunken shouting matches, wives being thrown around or beaten by a violent maniac husband, or children being whipped or beaten by EITHER parent.

    Also, why should these parents get a divorce? People get divorced because they "don't get along," or because one of them has broken trust with the other (among other reasons). DD is chosen by a couple to ENHANCE trust, to help a couple achieve MORE love than before, and has actually SAVED the marriages of several couples on my forum (couples who did nothing but scream at each other all the time and who could hardly stand one another before trying DD). You have no right to judge families that you know nothing about. For all you know, they may be even better parents than you, they may have a MUCH stronger marriage and children who will grow up to be rocket scientists and authors of great novels. You have no right to judge them since you don't know them. You must be a very hateful person to want to destroy marriages that are full of love and trust, and to tear children away from loving families. I feel sad for you. That's the "bottom line."

    There are people out there who use DD as an excuse to commit abuse crimes, but these are not the ones I am defending. I have NO sympathy for men who beat their wives and children. I do however respect and admire those who are striving for a better marriage and relationship. It's just like a couple who go to counseling to discuss what is wrong with their sex life and discover that the husband's obsession with porn is making his wife feel unloved and inadequate. They might strive to help him break this habit and that would help their marriage build more love and trust. DD is just one of many options that might work for some people. NOT EVERYONE WOULD BENEFIT FROM DD. No one is saying this.

    So to wrap this all up:

    NO children are EVER involved with their parent's decision to practice DD.

    DD is a PRIVATE matter between a couple.

    Children are NEVER spanked because since a child would not consent to this, it is abuse.

    DD is CONSENTUAL, not "wife beating".

    DD is NOT practiced because the "bible says to." A lot of wives base their reason for being submissive on the bible because it says for wives to be gentle and submissive, but NOWHERE does it say that men should spank their wives. There ARE groups who say that DD is linked to the bible, and this is their OPINION. The MAJORITY of DD couples do NOT use the bible as a reason to practice it.

    People who have been reading the junky DD sites should really check out the Digits and Maryann site. THERE's a couple who are practicing loving DD. You can get articles from both him AND his wife, so you get both opinions. I suggest that everyone who has doubts about DD read this. That is, unless you aren't really interested in anything but making judgments about people you don't even know. If anyone would like some more good sites please let me know. I know some really good ones that present DD in the way that we are discussing here (not the "abusive" kind, but the loving kind).

    Anyway, I'm done for now. All I can say Mary, is please read things before you post. It's really tiresome to try to say the same thing over and over again.

    QS

    P.S.

    Sorry I got a little upset, it's just that I can't stand people who make general statements about DD and who judge people they don't even know. No one makes general statements about THEM, so what gives them the right to play God and decide who's "good" or "evil."


    — QS · 2007-06-05 23:57 · #

  231. Sorry, one more thing.

    Basically, Mary, by making that statement you are saying that because we practice DD, my boyfriend (soon to be husband) is a monster and that I am too stupid to tell the difference between abuse and something else? Wouldn't I know if I was being manipulated or abused? Why would the person I love, who has told me that he wants to stay with me forever, who has never lied to me, and who I trust with my own life want to abuse me? Why would I let him? I am a capable young woman, in my right mind, and am quite able to make rational decisions. Wouldn't I be able to recognize a monster after being together for over a year? He is not controlling, he doesn't call me all the time to check on where I am (and am I with another guy), he's never jealous, he has never called me names or told me I was stupid, he has never hit me anywhere other than on my bottom, and he always tells me he loves me after a spanking and holds me tight. Is that how an abuser acts?

    There are so many couples out there who practice DD and it is wonderful for them. They love each other and know that they can trust each other completely. The wife knows that her husband will protect her from everything, even herself and her actions that might cause harm to the relationship. The husband knows that his wife will always respect him, and is willing to let him be the head of the household, trusting him to make competent decisions that will only benefit them.

    I wanted a relationship where I knew that I could fall backwards and always have strong hands to catch me. Sometimes they catch me by the head, and I can think better about how my actions effect us. Sometimes they catch me by the shoulders, and I know that together we can carry the burdens life hands us. And yes, sometimes they catch me on my bottom and although it stings for a while, I know that there is a line that he will not let me cross, a line where I end up walking out the door and closing my heart to everything we have created together.

    So do I sound stupid to you, Mary? Am I a brainwashed, incompetent woman who can't tell what abuse is? Is my soon-to-be husband a monster obsessed with nothing but controlling me? I can only give my example, but know that I am not alone. There are so many women and men out there like me who are striving to protect and enhance their marriages.

    YES, there ARE abusers, and YES we should strive to protect those women who are abused, but the U.S. government said that anything agreed upon between consenting adults is legal, and there is no such thing as TRUE DD without consent. The men who practice true DD are not monsters, nor are their wives incompetent. Please do not present them as if they were.

    Christian Wife is at least asking intelligent questions rather than making general statements (thank you so much for that, by the way!). I am happy to answer her questions, or any questions people have about DD, since I know about it from a first hand perspective, but I will not stand for people making accusatory remarks simply for the sake of sounding superior.

    _____________

    On a side note:

    I think that a lot of women have a problem with DD because they don't like the idea of letting a man have any kind of control in their lives. Our society has made it so that women feel threatened by even a hint of male dominance. We have to be "strong" and "together," women have to push for the highest positions in a company to prove that "men can't hold us back." We think that because men have always been perceived as stronger, we are in danger of being enslaved by their "superiority." We feel like if we don't fight it, we will forever be crushed under the heels of the opposite sex. This is not true. A man and woman can live in equality and STILL allow him to be in charge. There is nothing demeaning about it. A wife allowing her husband to make the decisions in the household shows that she trusts him completely. Rather than worrying all the time about "her" bills, and "her" kids, and "her" house, it becomes "our" responsibilities, children, and home. The husband listens to her opinions, not making a major decision without consulting her. She is his counselor, always willing to give advice on the present situation, but is NOT his dictator. She submits to his authority, which is something EXTREMELY difficult for a woman in today's society. Now, any kind of submission makes her a victim of male dominance, and no one can understand "what is wrong with her" to make her let him "control" her.

    There are many women out there who have the DESIRE to be submissive. Some of them might be reading this forum right now. I am one of these, and I can truthfully say that there is nothing wrong with wanting to serve the man in your life. There is nothing wrong with wanting to make him happy, and to do what he says. As long as he doesn't force you to do something you don't want to do, then its ok. If he doesn't regard your feelings at all, or dismisses your advice and help, then you need to take a good look at your relationship, because these are the signs of a controlling person. Husbands and wives should always work as a team, even if the wife is not a submissive type of person. That's ok too. There's nothing that says "women must be submissive to their men," but some women CHOOSE to be. There is nothing wrong with this, just as there is nothing wrong with wanting to change your hair color or wear a different perfume. Both ways are ok. It's what works best for the individual couple.

    I know that I sometimes have trouble submitting, even though I want to with all my heart. Nothing makes me happier than knowing that I've made HIM happy. I love the smile on his face when he comes home and sees that I've completed the chores he asked me to do, or made dinner, or am simply waiting for him with a "welcome home." That is what makes me happiest. This is different for every couple, but I don't think that society's fear of "male dominance" should be tolerated.

    Why should we, as women, always fear the opposite sex? It IS fear that keeps us from letting them get close to us. How many times have we broken up with the love of our life simply because we were too scared of getting closer? It is so sad that our society makes us think this way, condemning any woman who truly WANTS to be submissive, and elevating women who stomp on everyone to get what they want and prove that "women are superior." Isn't that what we want men NOT to do? We shouldn't be so hypocritical.

    Sorry, I was thinking about this this morning and had to talk about it? I know I'll probably get a lot of negative responses, but what do you all think about this?

    — QS · 2007-06-06 08:22 · #

  232. I don`t think it is strange that people is reacting the way they do on DD, like Mary do, it surprise me that you are not able to understand that.
    So, there is something called "real" DD, with people not as weird as forinstance Christian DD, with clear rules about holding the children outside. I command this very much because children and childhood means a lot to me.
    It may sound a bit strange to you, but what I have seen of CDD on internet disgust me more than anything else.
    May be it isn`t so strange that they are more weird than others, because they have to try to make it seems like rightous and biblic, which result in something that reminds of perversity.
    I also have to admit when i read about severe spankings I begin to wonder a bit about the husbands( what kind of mother did they have forinstance?),
    or if the wives compete with each other who gets the worst spankings( as when you are in hospital and the patients compare their diseases, the worse the "better"; -I`ve seen it)
    I trust my thoughts and feelings in this case when it comes to this, this is not good, as Marjorie said; I don`t care if it is voluntarily from the woman`s side, I just don`t accept it!
    But of course grown up people can do what they want for me.
    But as I mentioned before there are some really nasty blogs where parents talk about what they are doing with there children, slap their faces before spanking, using canes, belts, they rolls in this, enjoy themselves, i begin to wonder if some of them have some rings that are even more childabusive than it appears.
    But in USA , for me as a scandinavian it seems like americans are dependent on spankingis to heroine in some cases.
    Maryann and Digit were somwe o the first sites i looked at , and I believe I remenber them as somewhat more "normal" and " nice"than forintance Vicky Blue and Bethany Woodshed in my opinion ( Vicky B I mentioned as " wicked Blue" in my thougths I remember)
    Some of this stories, especially the "romance" stories from Leah Kelley are awful!She seems more nice when she write at her website, but her stories are terrible, I wonder what`s in their mind and what kind of person that wrotes stories like that!
    She seems as I said weird.
    QS, I wish you all luck and to you others a good summer, too. Since it happenened to be some writings between us on this topic for quite a while i almost feel a kind of relationship to you.
    Enjoy your life, it is a gift.

    — Christian Wife · 2007-06-06 10:23 · #

  233. It is widely known that children of fathers who abuse their mothers grow up to be abusers or be abused. Anyone who practices this monstrous life style is in an abuser-victim relationship. Any woman who "desires" this is psychological unstable and the man who desires this is a sadist. The children should be removed from this sadistic, mentally unstable home. The woman should be put under the same restrictions as other abused women who are so mentally unstable as to believe they love the abuser, they should not be allowed contact with him or loose her children. This is cruelty and should not be allowed.

    You suffer from Stockholm Syndrome, where the captive identifies so much with her captor that she believes he is right in everything. It happened to Patty Hurst, it has happened to you! Just because someone can deceive you into saying you want to be abused by him does not make it right, and should not make it legal.

    GET HELP! You may think you have the right to request to be beaten by your man, but you do not have the right to bring children into such a situation and ruin their chances to grow up psychologically healty.

    — Mary · 2007-06-06 12:09 · #

  234. Before you say "children dont' know' one more time. All children know the dynamic of their home. These poor kids know Mom is a slave. She will be servile and "lap-dog" like with their Dad. Little girls will see males as Gods.

    This is one of the sickest things I have ever seen. Women are people, equal to men. Can your men never make mistakes? I guess not, they don't get whacked!

    I wish you could see that anyone desiring this is psychologically in need of immediate help.

    — Mary · 2007-06-06 12:15 · #

  235. Before you say "children dont' know' one more time. All children know the dynamic of their home. These poor kids know Mom is a slave. She will be servile and "lap-dog" like with their Dad. Little girls will see males as Gods.

    This is one of the sickest things I have ever seen. Women are people, equal to men. Can your men never make mistakes? I guess not, they don't get whacked!

    I wish you could see that anyone desiring this is psychologically in need of immediate help.

    — Mary · 2007-06-06 12:15 · #

  236. Is the HOH ever wrong about anything? Is the woman always bad and wrong?

    And children ALWAYS pick up on the dynamic of the home. I hate to think of what will become of little girls raised seeing Mom with fear in her eyes for Dad. She will fear men and pick abusive men her whole life, psychologists have proven it. And the boys will abuse the women in their life, it will be their birthright.

    Our society is owed better than having a lifestyle in our midst that simply creates more victims and victimizers. This is an affront to civilization.

    — Mary · 2007-06-06 14:05 · #

  237. To Mary:

    Your attitude disgusts me. I will not comment on your callous remarks because they are only written to provoke negative responses that will only fuel your point. You need to take a look at what you are writing and how you are expressing your opinion because if it was true that I was a "sufferer of Stockholm's syndrome" I would have no desire to listen to your advice because of the ignorant way in which you presented it. You are so judgemental and accusatory that I feel only loathing for you and have no desire to address anything you have said. So why don't you just go crawl back in your cave and wallow in self-righteousness knowing that you successfully "told off" those wicked DD women. If you'll excuse me, I have to go beat my cat (since I have no children yet) and then prepare for my abusive boyfriend's return. I'm sure he'll give me at least two black eyes today, as well as knocking out one of my teeth. Too bad I didn't listen to you, huh? Oh yeah, I forgot, I'm probably too stupid to understand what you said.

    Anyway, back to talking to rational people:

    Thank you CW for your comments. I agree that most of the stories portray DD as much more severe than it is for many couples. I know that I've read some and thought "no real person could physically withstand this and come out alive." While spankings can be severe depending on the couple and the transgression, I know no people who use ones that are *that* bad. So, just don't take those stories at face value. :-) It's like romance novels, no one's sexual experiences are as passionate and beautiful as those portrayed in the stories. People like to read things that are extreme, because reading about everyday stuff is "boring." It's been great talking to you. I think that I actually may be finished with this topic finally. Thanks for all the comments CW and Caro!

    — QS · 2007-06-06 17:05 · #

  238. CW,

    I agree with you that it is not strange that people should initially react in the way that they do when they first encounter the DD concept and look at it from the outside in. However, what I do find rather odd is that they should continue to make the same accusations and assumptions about abuse and religious associations when people who actually PRACTISE this thing, or know people who do, have told them repeatedly from the INSIDE that it is not so.

    Everyone is entitled to their viewpoint and no-one should ever think of entering into this kind of relationship if it is anathema to them, but if it suits some people to do it and it works for them, why should not they have the same freedom of choice to pursue their own lives, which impact no-one else, in peace and privacy?

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-06-07 01:57 · #

  239. Mary, or should I say, Marjorie?,

    You said:-

    "You suffer from Stockholm Syndrome, where the captive identifies so much with her captor that she believes he is right in everything. It happened to Patty Hurst, it has happened to you! Just because someone can deceive you into saying you want to be abused by him does not make it right, and should not make it legal."

    **********

    Quite ridiculous! There are thousands, possibly even millions of couples in DD relationships and they all made the free choice to enter into them by their own volition. No-one kidnapped them or forced them into the relationships against their will and no-one forces these people to remain in them.

    Stockholm syndrome - Definition: "Stockholm syndrome is a psychological state in which the victims of a kidnapping, or persons detained against their free will – prisoners – develop a relationship with their captor(s)."

    So let's see, if two free and equal people who are already in a loving married, or intimate relationship, sit down together and MUTUALLY decide that they want to live a DD lifestyle according to some CONSENSUALLY agreed guidelines and always subject to the agreement of both, you think that's 'Stockholm syndrome'? Sorry, but that is absolutely laughable. It just has no credibility whatsoever. It's not even sensible!
    __________________________________________________________________________________________

    GET HELP! You may think you have the right to request to be beaten by your man, but you do not have the right to bring children into such a situation and ruin their chances to grow up psychologically healty.

    *************

    How about you get some help that will enable you to see that all of this nonsense is in your mind and bears no relationship to reality?

    __________________________________________________________________________________________

    Mary | June 6, 2007 01:15 PM

    "Before you say "children dont' know' one more time. All children know the dynamic of their home. These poor kids know Mom is a slave. She will be servile and "lap-dog" like with their Dad. Little girls will see males as Gods."

    **********

    Children CANNOT "know that Mom is a slave" for the simple and very good reason that she is not. The "dynamic" that children will see is a mutually respectful relationship between a mother and father who present a united front to their children that lacks the conflict that many children have to witness in 'normal' (note that I do not say "ALL") homes. The man is not deified and treated like a God and his wife is not 'servile' to him, nor does he undermine her authority over the children. Basically they CANNOT "see" the things that you claim, because they just don't happen.
    _________________________________________________________________________________________

    "This is one of the sickest things I have ever seen. Women are people, equal to men.

    **********

    You are correct. "Women are people, equal to men", and as free people in their own right, DD wives have chosen this as the way in which they wish to lead their private lives. If you had your wish to take that choice away from them because you consider it "sick" then they would no longer be "equal" or free to choose.
    __________________________________________________________________________________________

    Can your men never make mistakes? I guess not, they don't get whacked!" Is the HOH ever wrong about anything? Is the woman always bad and wrong?

    **********
    DD does not represent submission or servility across the board. It is confined to specific areas in which a couple have decided MUTUALLY that they wish to improve and in which, in the opinion of the couple concerned, the man is more suited to leadership. Yes he can and does make mistakes like any other human being, however, DD is a two way responsibility and to retain credibility and trust, the man must try to lead by example. In all non DD matters, transaction between the couple is much the same as in any other relationship.
    __________________________________________________________________________________________

    "I wish you could see that anyone desiring this is psychologically in need of immediate help."

    **********
    Would you also say this of any couple who favours an unusual sexual act, or of a person of non-conventional sexuality? Or perhaps of any person whose lifestyle is different from yours? If not, then why say it of DD, which is also a private and consensual choice in an adult relationship?

    ____________________________________________________________________________________________

    Mary | June 6, 2007 03:05 PM

    "And children ALWAYS pick up on the dynamic of the home. I hate to think of what will become of little girls raised seeing Mom with fear in her eyes for Dad. She will fear men and pick abusive men her whole life, psychologists have proven it. And the boys will abuse the women in their life, it will be their birthright.

    *********

    "It is widely known that children of fathers who abuse their mothers grow up to be abusers or be abused. Anyone who practices this monstrous life style is in an abuser-victim relationship. Any woman who "desires" this is psychological unstable and the man who desires this is a sadist. The children should be removed from this sadistic, mentally unstable home. The woman should be put under the same restrictions as other abused women who are so mentally unstable as to believe they love the abuser, they should not be allowed contact with him or loose her children. This is cruelty and should not be allowed."

    *********
    Absolute nonsense. This is all in your rather overactive imagination and is dangerously slanderous to boot. What the parents do in privacy DOES NOT impact on their children. You also quite clearly have no understanding of the word "abuse". To "abuse" is to FORCE unwanted behaviour, whether, sexual. violent, or verbal, on someone weaker than yourself. DD is a mutual arrangement between consenting adults and is not governed by fear or tyranny.
    ___________________________________________________________________________________________

    Our society is owed better than having a lifestyle in our midst that simply creates more victims and victimizers. This is an affront to civilization.

    *********

    Please supply the statistics that prove that DD, "creates more victims and victimizers". As I understand it from what you have said so far, although DD in one form or another has been a constant for hundreds of years, you have only just discovered that there is such a concept, and are hardly in a position to judge on this matter. How can what happens consensually between two people in the privacy of their own home be an "affront to civilization"?

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-06-07 03:18 · #

  240. "But as I mentioned before there are some really nasty blogs where parents talk about what they are doing with there children, slap their faces before spanking, using canes, belts, they rolls in this, enjoy themselves, i begin to wonder if some of them have some rings that are even more childabusive than it appears."
    ***********

    Christian Wife. You and I, and no doubt, QS and everyone else here are in total agreement that these blog posts are reprehensible, but I would like to point out that, despite the fact that you found them via a DD site, they are on a SPANKING, rather than a DD site, and not even the mothers who posted these things claim they are anything to do with DD or say that they go on in families who practise adult DD. In my opinion, the child spanking issue is a completely different one from DD and you can find quite detailed and graphic discussions about it even on the most respectable non DD but family related discussion forums and websites.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-06-07 03:30 · #

  241. Caro,
    This is Marjorie I am not Mary. Caro you and I have been going back and forth with this for a long time. I would never use another name. I have not had time to read all of the post that have been entered this week. I will when I get home tonight. If I have something to say you of all people know I say it and not use sosmeone elses name.

    — Marjorie · 2007-06-07 09:14 · #

  242. Any time a woman is abused it is an affront to civilization. I question the duress a woman is under to sign up for this. She needs psychological counseling. The man needs to be in jail. This is like the Talaban for Christ's sake! Do you want an Afghanistan lifestyle brought to this country? We do not need this in the United States and it needs to stop. We decry the need for freedom for third world women and we have women imprisioned in abuse right here at home and people call it "privacy"?????

    This needs to enter the legal system. Spouse abuse is illegal, you cannot sign away your human rights, that is not what this country is about. Prisioners get treated with more respect than you women do, you are just too "Talabanized" to see it, there are women in Saudi Arabia that have been brainwashed into believing they like institutionalized abuse also, it does not keep it from being an affront to human rights.

    — Mary · 2007-06-07 10:09 · #

  243. Caro,
    After reading Mary's posting it did stir some feelings that I have towards DD. Except to remove a child from it's mother because she lives a DD life style is not something I would ever think or say. I might say try to make the mother see another way of life not take a child from its mother because she and her husband live a DD life. If it was a home with abuse especially that was damaging the child, that is another story. By no means would I think you or the woman I developed a relationship with are bad mother's. If anything I think the lady I have mentioned was to good of a mother. You have finally hurt my feelings.
    Margot

    — Marjorie · 2007-06-07 11:18 · #

  244. Caro,
    After reading Mary's posting it did stir some feelings that I have towards DD. Except to remove a child from it's mother because she lives a DD life style is not something I would ever think or say. I might say try to make the mother see another way of life not take a child from its mother because she and her husband live a DD life. If it was a home with abuse especially that was damaging the child, that is another story. By no means would I think you or the woman I developed a relationship with are bad mother's. If anything I think the lady I have mentioned was to good of a mother. You have finally hurt my feelings.
    Margot

    — Marjorie · 2007-06-07 11:18 · #

  245. Hello to All,
    Today,I read the postings for the first times in days and sparks are flying. Mary is not Marjorie must be the M thing. Mary welcome to this discussion I do share many of your views about DD. With that being said I use to think of women that practiced DD as miss guided fools. Over the last two years I have found many of them to be intellgent, educated, spririted, structured and committed to living this life style. I came to this resolve through some intense back and forth with Caro and reading some other arguements they have written in why they should live this lifestyle without anyone casting judgement or being thought of as stupid. It seems that a part of them craves living under this type of domination. They seem to feel this bond that comes from DD that is beyond my or your understanding(who are we to judge).
    I also agree that children learn what they live. Children of alcaholics are more likely to become alcaholics so that most likely applies to others things like children are what they grow up with.
    Now is the trick question Amish, some Mormons, Hasidic Jews etc. do not live the life style of main stream America. Corporal punishment in some of the states is legal with a large population of people who believe in corporal punishment living in these states. I researched this and the only way to stop Corporal Punishment throughout the USA would be have a Federal Law. It would be hard to find a senator to sponsor this into a bill. Unless you could find a constituent pushing for a bill against corporal punishment.
    Hasidic Jews do not dance or touch women and use them like baby machines. They teach their daughter's at an early age they are to marry and reproduce. To me this is degrating to woman. Do we take their children away, of course not. Consenual whatever between two parent's is not considered harming the child. It would be another story if the child was being physically hurt then the child by law would be considered in danger. The couples claim to use the upmost caution when the children are not home I agree with what you stated kids know everything. Lets be honest parents today are not Ozzie & Harriet so some things sadly we have to let go of. Their is always years of therapy when we reach adulthood.
    CW & Caro are real theologist your discussion's are insightful. I never thought we were in a contest last year just different opinion on a very intense topic. I am sure we all see religion, marriage, etc. in a different light.
    I could go on forever except I need to water my garden and eat.
    M

    — marjorie · 2007-06-07 15:48 · #

  246. Marjorie,

    I do apologise. It is quite true that, while we have had our differences, you have never at any point expressed yourself in quite such a vehement or uncompromising way as Mary, and you have never done more than express legitimate concern for the children of DD parents. Similarly, you have never pretended during this conversation to be anyone but yourself.

    A admit that I was wrong to suggest otherwise and I am sorry.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-06-07 16:29 · #

  247. Mary,

    It seems that you just cannot understand the difference between a forced and therefore abusive situation and one that is consensual and voluntary. I will say again, although it will almost certainly fall on deaf ears, that women in DD relationships are there of their own volition and free personal choice and are not forced, co-erced, trapped, or drawn into the situation by any misplaced sense of religious or other type of duty. They are simply adult and mentally competent women who have chosen to pursue a way of life that you don't happen to want for yourself. Where you get the idea that this makes them "imprisoned" or "talibanized", I really can't imagine.

    Women in places like Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia are the prisoners of oppressive cultural and religious regimes that do not allow them the choices and freedoms that we as Western women have fought for and won. Do you really want to impose a similar legally supported regime of control on the private lives of people in the West? Suppose a law is made to prevent the practise of DD - what happens when a politician or someone like you decides that we should only have conventional sex in the 'missionary position'? What about people who enjoy sexual spanking? Is that okay, or do you want to make that illegal too? How are you going to police your anti DD law? Have 'task forces' to raid people's homes and catch them at it perhaps? Or maybe have people's family and neighbors spy on them and report them as they did in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union? Where does it end, and who gets to decide what a husband and wife should or should not be allowed to do within the privacy of their own homes? What price human rights when you open a Pandora's box like that?

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-06-07 17:48 · #

  248. We can only barely hope to crack one nut (group) at a time. With references to the numerous religions that harm and degrad women; education is the hope. For DD however, this is abuse, and the women's seeming desire for it is a psychological disorder. They need help from counseling, not the physical mistreatment of an abusive mate. It is a far cry from not dancing and having too many kids for someone's own good to beatings.

    I do not believe these women are stupid. You can be a genius in intelligence and be mentally ill, we have seen it time and again.

    I am uncompromising, proudly so! I have an intense attachment to the need for women throughout the world to receive at least the same human rights as everyone else. No women anywhere should be subjected to physical or psychological punishment from her mate. That is something I cannot compromise my feelings on. I wish it could stop, but as long as there are sick, dominant men who seek out women with mental problems to abuse (usually telling them it's God's will), and our society doesn't recognize it as a problem, well it will continue.

    These people should not have the right to live like this, these men do not have the right to take advantage of obviously mentally ill women to live out their sick abuse fantasies. These men are sociopaths to want this life, they can't care for their mates or they couldn't do this to them. The guy with serious TB has been isolated. I believe the men that are abusing these women need to be isolated also, in jail, they are a cancer on our society! The women just need intensive mental health care.

    I am trying to spread the word about this horrible growing practice of DD to people I know involved in their churches and mental health people I know. I know that isn't much toward defeating this terrible practice in this country, but word needs to spread and people need to be looking out for the female victims of this abuse to try to help them leave the abuse and seek help.

    — Mary · 2007-06-08 09:35 · #

  249. Mary,
    I am by no means saying that abuse is acceptable I am not. Please read my original post all I am saying is that certain women want this life and we cannot change that no matter how much we do not like the idea of a man hitting or controling any woman. I will explain when I get home tonight in depth what I was trying to explain. I am not saying I have an answer to why I just get the genteral idea.
    Marjorie

    — Marjorie · 2007-06-08 11:45 · #

  250. Okay - I suppose I always knew that I was wasting my time. It's pretty clear that you have NO comprehension of what makes a DD relationship, and NO respect for anyone else's freedom of choice, privacy or human rights. Furthermore, you have NO interest in learning anything about either. I wouldn't describe that as "uncompromising", just dictatorial, intrusive and narrow minded.

    Give stopping "this terrible practice", your best shot, but always bear in mind that these people to whom you preach your personal gospel might very well be IN DD relationships themselves. They are hardly going to tell you if they are. In the meantime, the thousands of people who live this way will get on with their daily lives as they have for hundreds of years.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-06-08 13:33 · #

  251. Mary,
    I am sorry if I gave you the impression I am in any way a supporter of a DD lifestyle. I was explaining why a couple can have the choice to live this life style without much people like you & I(who this gets furious) can do about how they have decid to a DD life style.
    I am concerned about the women who are raised in cultures that promote DD. Not only does the Taliban abuse their women so do other religous fanatics. Then there are the naive young girls who are in bad relationships without much hope of life getting better. These oung ladies read on the internet DD will make it right. Then you add a partner who is happy to go along(he will just beat her when he wants). I have been given the arguement that he would be an abuser any way I do not agree with that.
    The entire control thing would make me feel like I lived in a prison. You said these ladies should get help trust me from past experience you cannot make people get help until they want to be helped. Many of these ladies do not want to be helped they are happy with their arrangements.

    What you could do is try to get more laws protecting the internet so every DD site would be restricted. Then there would less exposure to recruit more members. I am not a biblical scholar except I always remember one story about I think it was the Lord and all of these fish are dying the person with him asked why he was throwing fish in the water when he could not save more then a few. He responded that it mattered to the fish that got saved. So what ever you decide to do it is all about who you can help not how many people. I am sorry if this sounds like a lecture I am trying to save you from having arguements with ladies that will never back down. I waisted so much energy fighting with these ladies that I finally had to stop and see these ladies are commited to this life style some even proposed & insisted their husband's attempt a DD lifestyle. They are entitled to live how they want, not how we want.
    Marjorie

    — Marjorie · 2007-06-08 17:11 · #

  252. Oh and a few other things. things.

    First, could you please stop using mental health issues as a weapon to belittle and goad people? It really isn't terribly clever or helpful to your case.

    Secondly, I am confused as to why you think that women are not capable of making their own rational choices in life. For someone who claims to be a defender of her gender it is odd that you should think so little of its intelligence and powers of rational thought.

    Finally, why are you so discriminatory against men? How is it that everything has to be their 'fault' and women are never responsible for themselves?

    Caro


    — Caro · 2007-06-08 17:52 · #

  253. Caro,
    Thank you for the apology it meant alot.
    Marjorie

    — Marjorie · 2007-06-09 14:07 · #

  254. Marjorie,

    I know that you don't agree with or support the concept of DD and I know that you worry about the welfare and safety of those who practise it. For all of these feelings, I have the greatest of respect, because without people like you to consider these things, there would be no help or support for those who genuinely need it. This would include, in my eyes, cultural and religious groups in which women are taught that DD is not a choice, but mandatory.

    However, I thank you for taking the trouble to understand and accept that for SOME couples, DD is a free, informed and equal choice which makes them happy and from which they do not need or want to be rescued. Also, thank you for recognising that they have the same right as everyone else to choose the way in which they live.

    I also commend and support your thought that DD internet groups should be restricted to protected areas of the internet. This, in my opinion, would both satisfy the needs of the DD community, and, at the same time, protect vulnerable people from undue influence.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-06-09 16:12 · #

  255. Mary,
    I would just like to clarify something I had said in my prior post. When I suggested restricted sites. I was not suggesting that people who already have groups should not be allowed to use those sites. What I was suggesting is making the information that promotes DD more restricted to access. If a few women who read about DD. Then they think they have found the answer to everything we can imagine the rest.
    That does not change the fact that alot of women want this. They are the one that initiate DD most of the men have a hard time with what their wife wants them to do they are also not comfortable with having to take on the task of being the rule enforcer. I think after a while the men ease become more comfortable with this role some begin to to get empowered with the control they have. I have read some post that the women are complaining that the men are not consistant with the discipline. So how is that abuse I actually felt sorry for one guy his wife was trying to make him do something he was not comfortable with. You sound like a women with her heart in the right place. You should go to a web site called Taken in Hand you will see how commited these ladies are.
    Marjorie

    — Marjoire · 2007-06-09 23:00 · #

  256. Marjorie, in no way was I referencing you in my post. We must do all that we can, even if it helps only one person, I am in COMPLETE agreement on that.

    Caro, I don't wish to belittle anyone with "mental health" issues any more than I would belittle a cancer patient for having cancer. If you have it, you would do better to face it and get help. I believe that "choosing" (probably being goaded into, being raised to do anything to please your man ect..) are indicative of mental health problems like finding a malignant lump in one's breast would be a sign of cancer. I think someone who chooses to be in this situation is a very mentally sick lady, and is probably addicted to being abused. You cannot force a cocain addict to get help, so no one can force you to get help with your addiction/mental health issues. Marjorie is correct on that. I will not back down on telling what is right and true though, no matter what you think. That would be like letting everyone addicted to drugs just die when some may be able to see the light at some point.

    I actually LOVE men. I love real men though, these men that would beat and control woman they claim to love are weak, disgusting creatures that probably can't compete in the real world and need a sick little hostage at home to take their rages out on. They are afraid to go up against other men in the work place, they must lack any self-confidence, and they need to have that feeling of power and control over someone since they can't seem to get any feeling of accomplishment in carreer or society. Sick guys, I have no liking for men that hurt women, they are very bad characters indeed.

    Hear me when I say that all men don't need to hurt women to feel fulfilled. There are wonderful, caring men out there. All of you who are captives of this abusive DD life deserve much better than what you have. I can only hope your daughters don't look for the same abusive types you are drawn to, but usually that is exactly what they do. This DD is just a way men can feel legalized in their abuse.

    — Mary · 2007-06-10 07:04 · #

  257. Mary,

    I still don't understand your failure to comprehend that a women, no sorry, thousands of women, can make a free and competent choice about how she/they want live their own private lives without being mentally ill. The sole justification that you have offered for such a hugely sweeping statement about a whole section of society, is that you - one woman - don't agree with the concept. And incidentally, the fact that it is YOUR opinion doesn't automatically make it more "right and true" than anyone else's.

    Unless you tell me otherwise, I have to assume that you are neither a doctor, nor a counsellor and are therefore in any case completely unqualified to assess the mental state of other people. By all means, put help at the disposal of those who genuinely WANT AND NEED it, but leave the medical diagnosis to the professionals and don't put the health of other people at risk by playing the dangerous game of amateur pyschologist in matters which you do not understand.

    You also might like to bear in mind that telling people that they are abusive, mentally ill, stupid, et al, in such an agressive, venemous and verbally abusive way ("She who must be obeyed", comes to mind) just because they want to make a lifestyle choice of which YOU don't approve, is hardly going to be conducive to getting them to listen to you. To use your own drug addiction anology, if one were to try to rescue a drug addict from his or her addiction, one wouldn't succeed in this by calling them names and systematically destroying what little self esteem and will to live that remained to them. It actually amazes me that someone who speaks so venomously and bitterly about other human beings and with so little regard for their feelings and personal rights should be condemning OTHER PEOPLE as unloving and abusive.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-06-10 10:35 · #

  258. Mary,
    Some people get a sexual turn on from having their feet sucked. I have a friend this is the honest to God truth she is a 17 year practicing massage therapist. We were discussing feet one night she mentioned she had a client for 10 years who would not allow their feet to be massaged or touched. I don't know if it was a male or female client my friend did not share to much info. The client told her at the first massage that they did not want their feet touched under any circumstances. Many years later the client made mention about how their feet got them arroused.
    My friend was surprised then did some research to find out some people are into feet. So what is wrong with them? I know feet are trivial compared to DD. Except the unusual desire part is similar people have different desires. I WOULD NEVER SUCK ANY BUT A NEW BABY'S TOES. Please do some reading then think about what some of these ladies are saying.
    Marjorie

    — Marjorie · 2007-06-10 13:12 · #

  259. Sorry, true is true. Men who would hit women are monsters and women who think they "need it" are very ill.

    Why argue with me if I am so way off base? And have you done any searching on the web about opinions other than those in other sick, abusive DD relationships? Well, I am not the only one that sees this as a horrible, abuse of women. People who are brainwashed cannot make decisions logically. NO ONE can choose this sort of submissive, abusive lifestyle and be ok with theselves. You are all so wrong. This is an area where tolerance should fall by the wayside. I wish every man that made his wife take these beatings would be outed and ostricized in society as the thug he is. Jailed would be best for these creeps. An abusive man is an abusive man. Women in these situations should get out of the bubble he has stuck them in and do a little reading on their own.

    If this were only a bedroom feitish, I actually would have not problem with it. It is the fact that the "perfect" men get to abuse their so-called lesser mates by beating them for perceived "rule-breaking'. Of course, he, most perfect gets to set the rules. They must bow down to him in all things or get beaten, what part of sick don't you people get here? Why is he so perfect??? No one can answer that can they? Why is the man perfect and the woman such nothing that she must obey his will or be beaten? Can any of you answer that without screaming Old Testament rubbish????? Can you're most remarkable (anti-social) men make no mistakes????? Please answer how men are beyond reproach and should have the right to beat women for breaking "their" rules????

    — Mary · 2007-06-11 12:05 · #

  260. Hee hee! I had to chuckle at that Marjorie. After witnessing how bad my b/f's soccer shoes made his car smell, I have absolutely NO desire to suck on his feet. *shiver* Just the thought of it makes me go "bleck!"

    QS

    — QS · 2007-06-11 14:51 · #

  261. Mary,

    First you want to rip children away from their parents, and now you want to brand people as mentally ill and break up marriages and relationships in which people are perfectly happy and fulfilled. All of this on the strength of what is no more than your personal and completely UNQUALIFIED OPINION on a subject about which you clearly understand absolutely nothing and wish to understand even less. No matter how many times you come out with the same tirade of verbal abuse and judgements on other people, it still won't change those facts.

    The fact is that, whether or not YOU, who have completely stereotyped misconceptions about DD, think that it is "sick", it still isn't your place or your right to decide what other people can or cannot do consensually in the privacy of their own homes and relationships.

    You ask me, "Why argue with me if I am so way off base?" which is actually a rather silly question since the answer is obviously going to be "BECAUSE you are so way off base". In turn, I would ask you: Why are you so obsessed with the need to interfere in and control other people's private lives? Also, why have you so little respect for the rights and choices of other people? In fact, what have other people's private lives have to do with you anyway?

    With respect to doing research or a little independent "reading" outside the realms of DD, doesn't it tell you something that proponents of DD are posting on THIS blog? This is the INTERNET for heavens sake, where there is a wealth of information about almost everything. The people who read information about DD are hardly going to restrict their interest to just that one thing. Also, since you think you know how these relationships work, haven't you realised yet that the decision to adopt a DD relationship is often taken jointly by a couple who have previously lived together for many years without it? Personally, I would have thought that twenty or more years of marriage would count as pretty extensive non DD research. If you want to know what research I have done into the subject of relationships, my reply would be to say that, unlike you, I have done at least sufficient research and comparison to know that there is a difference between DD and abuse.

    Finally, what is it that you do not understand about the fact that DD is not biblical? Although as a believer myself, I wouldn't call ANY of the bible "rubbish", as has repeatedly been posted in this topic, the bible says nothing about the beating (not that DD involves 'beating', but I don't expect you to copmprehend that)of wives in either the Old or the New Testament.

    If you really want to make credible arguments against DD, a little less foot stamping, hysteria, anger and aggression, and a little more knowledge and reasoning would go a long way.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-06-12 10:07 · #

  262. "Why argue with me if I am so way off base? And have you done any searching on the web about opinions other than those in other sick, abusive DD relationships?"

    When I first became interested in DD, I did a lot of research. I've read the websites that do the whole "men control the world and women must be submissive or suffer the consequences." I've also read the sites that believe as I do, that DD is a loving commitment between a husband and wife. I read this forum to see what other people's opinions are, not just those of people who practice DD. Through this forum, I have read a lot of opinions that are different from those of DD couples, as well as people who agree with me. So please don't assume that because some of us disagree with you that we are uninformed. Research is really important before beginning ANY alternative lifestyle. You don't want to jump into something that you know nothing about. So, yes, I have researched online, and I expect that Caro and others have too. Please don't make assumptions.

    "Well, I am not the only one that sees this as a horrible, abuse of women."

    No one is saying that you are. For goodness sakes, have YOU read anything on this board? We are quite aware that there are other women who believe that DD is abuse. All we are saying is that there are DD relationships that are NOT ABUSIVE. I don't deny that some men use DD as an excuse, but NOT all men. My b/f dislikes having to punish me. He only does so when he feels that I need a reminder that is stronger than corner time, or when it is something very serious and damaging to the relationship. Neither of us wants to see our relationship crumble. His parents are divorced, and my grandparents were, so neither of us wants to see our marriage result in divorce. If this is a way that we think we can keep that from becoming a possibility, by enhancing mutual respect and love, than we will continue it no matter what your opinion is. I know that he is not a "monster" or a "sicko." I know that he is the most gentle man I have ever met, and has never harmed me in any way. I love him more every day.

    "NO ONE can choose this sort of submissive, abusive lifestyle and be ok with theselves. You are all so wrong."

    No one? How about the hundreds of women who do and find that their marriages are better for it? What's wrong with being submissive? I know several couples that practice submission without spanking (they use corner time and alternative punishments) and it works for them too. What is wrong with a woman wanting to hand over the reigns? Are we so afraid of suppression that we can't give up control for one second? Aren't these the men that we have promised to "love, honor, and obey?" Oh, I forgot, most couples take out the "obey" part nowadays, don't they. Well, we're going to leave it in, and I have no problem promising to obey him. It doesn't lower my self esteem to tell him "I love you so much that I am going to respect you enough to obey you." That makes HIM feel honored, and if he accepts my gift of love, I feel honored as well. So all in all, knowing that my man loves me makes me feel pretty "ok with myself."

    "Women in these situations should get out of the bubble he has stuck them in and do a little reading on their own."

    Like I said, most women do a LOT of research before beginning DD. When I first started to feel the desire to have my b/f in control of the relationship, I thought I was leaning towards BDSM. So I went to a sex advice website and talked to some people there who were involved with BDSM. As we discussed my feelings, they led me to a good DD website (that Digits and Maryann one, as well as Taken in Hand), where I proceeded to read posts from couples who practiced loving DD. From there, I read some controversial discussions, including this one, and some sites that I disagreed with, before I was able to come up with what I actually wanted. THEN I presented it to my b/f and we researched a little bit together. NO ONE should jump into DD blind. That's how damaging mistakes are made. He hasn't stuck me in a bubble. He doesn't monitor my internet access to make sure that I am ONLY looking at "good, DD supporting sites." If he did, there's NO WAY he would let me on this discussion (too many "opposing opinions"). He wants me to research and learn as much as I can about ANYTHING. If I come up with something interesting, I share it with him and we discuss it. It is a TEAM effort. DD is not controlled by him, he doesn't feed me "good" information and filter out the "bad." We decide together what works for us.

    "It is the fact that the "perfect" men get to abuse their so-called lesser mates by beating them for perceived "rule-breaking'. Of course, he, most perfect gets to set the rules."

    Woah. You seriously haven't read anything have you? We've said many times that we don't see our men as perfect. I know my b/f isn't. He makes mistakes just as much as any other person, man or woman. I have been with him for over a year and a half now, so I have seen him in both good times and bad. I KNOW that he is not perfect. Also, we have said many times that DD is COOPERATIVE. Since you don't seem to get this, I will take a minute to explain: COOPERATION is when two or more people work together to achieve a goal (loose definition). By working together to create a DD relationship, BOTH partners set the rules. In fact, many DD couples have NO rules, because this makes the guy feel like a police officer. So they agree on general principles that govern the relationship. For an example, I'll share ours:

    1. Honesty at all times. I don't lie to him, he doesn't lie to me. This includes direct lying, lies of omission, and lies to yourself.

    2. I let him be in charge (I wrote this one, btw). I give my opinion and advice, but I let him make the final decision. In response, he doesn't abuse his authority by being 100% controlling, and lets me have a say in EVERY decision. I don't manipulate or "brat" to get my own way.

    3. I obey the house rules. This includes not eating in the living room, going jogging everyday, and watching my diet (I tend to eat WAY too many cookies and ice cream.).

    Not all of these are spankable. For most I get corner time if I break one of them. He only spanks when I have seriously disrespected him, myself, or someone else, or have done something that hurts us as a couple (screaming instead of talking during a disagreement, refusing to talk out problems, etc). He doesn't "beat" me for breaking "percieved rules" that "he created." He corrects my behavior, either through spanking or corner time, for ignoring the guidelines for our relationship that we created together. If we can't follow the guidelines that we created while we were dating and engaged, how can we expect to stick to our marital vows? So, I'm sorry, but what you said was not a "fact."

    "Why is he so perfect??? No one can answer that can they? Why is the man perfect and the woman such nothing that she must obey his will or be beaten?"

    For goodness sake, let me say something else here. DD DOESN'T MEAN SPANKING, OK? Spanking is a component in most DD relationships, but it is not what it is about. It's about the wife letting the husband lead, make the decisions, and take care of the family. It is the man's responsibility in these relationships to protect the home. If someone broke in to try and destroy his home and wife, he would be expected to protect her, even if he ended up killing the person. If his wife's actions or words threaten to destroy the home or herself, he cannot kill her, but he is responsible for correcting her. Again, this is how it is viewed in DD relationships. I'm not saying that ALL couples give men this responsibility. Personally, I feel safer knowing that my temper is not acceptable and that he will stick my nose in the corner if I let it get out of control. I don't like having a temper that hurts other people, and I am glad he is there to help me take care of it.

    "Can any of you answer that without screaming Old Testament rubbish?????"

    Yup, you're just ranting here. You obviously haven't read a thing that anyone's said. *whisper* Just to let you know, no one has said anything about the old testament in response to your post. And you're the only one screaming...Just thought I'd tell you before you make a fool of yourself. *whisper*

    "Can you're most remarkable (anti-social) men make no mistakes????? Please answer how men are beyond reproach and should have the right to beat women for breaking "their" rules????"

    Take a deep breath please. You're obviously working yourself up into a temper tantrum. I'll repeat it again one last time in hopes that some of it will get through your wall. NO ONE says that these men are perfect. They most definitely do not see themselves as perfect. On my forum, the husbands of the women who post often post themselves, talking about how they feel and what struggles they go through. At least half of the members are men, and they obviously don't think they're perfect, or else they wouldn't bother to post. And btw, a lot of them are very social. In fact, the people on the board are all planning a camping trip together in a few months (just for fun and to get to meet everyone). My b/f is quiet, but has a lot of friends at college, and has even been elected president of his department's club. We spend most nights with friends, talking or watching movies. So again, please don't make sweeping assumptions.

    So let me ask you a question. Why do you think YOU are perfect? Why do you think that only YOUR way is correct? Should we all be angry, judgmental women who have no regard for other's feelings and opinions, and who post with more than one question mark to show our displeasure???????? Am I making an assumption about you? I'll stop, ok, but only if you'll stop making assumption about DD couples without actually reading what other people say. Man, I said I was going to stop posting so many times, especially since nothing I write is getting read anyway, but I can't help myself. These couples are "my people," and I care for them as much as you pretend to, if not more. I identify with them, and don't want to see couples who are happily living in a way that works for THEM have assumptions made about them and misinformation posted. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, read some of these words. I know I wrote a lot, but I really wanted to share from where I am coming from. I'm new to the whole DD thing, and I'm still learning how it works. Am I beaten for not understanding? No. For not obeying him 100% of the time without question? No. Am I "beaten" at all? No. I am loved, though. Loved beyond anything I could ever imagine. Even when my bottom is red from his hand, I know that that hand loves me, and that the man behind it loves me, and that nothing will ever harm me-- not even myself. I never knew that love was so REAL until I met him, and as we have been growing together as a couple, I see it expanding and changing into something even more beautiful. DD doesn't create love, it is merely the fertilizer in which some of us choose to grow. Not all plants can live in the rain forest, cacti for example, but some live there perfectly well and grow more beautiful each day. That's what I want our relationship to be; a beautiful plant that blossoms ever more lovely as it matures in the fertile soil surrounding its roots.

    — QS · 2007-06-12 10:16 · #

  263. Wow, it's been almost a week. Did I scare everyone away? I'm sorry if I did, I just wanted to share. :-( Sorry.

    — QS · 2007-06-17 21:12 · #

  264. But for Christ sake, QS, who has said that anybody believes they are perfect?

    — CW · 2007-06-19 08:17 · #

  265. CW,

    I believe that QS is referring to Mary's inability to respect the rights, freedom of choice and privacy of other people in the belief that her opinion on DD is infallible. In my view, this does imply that she believes herself to be perfect and therefore qualified to judge other people.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-06-19 20:43 · #

  266. Thanks Caro. I guess I did come across poorly. I'm sorry. I'm not saying that EVERYONE thinks they are perfect. People who judge other people without taking into account ANYTHING they are saying, judge them by a standard. That standard is usually the person who is doing the judging. You can't accurately judge something with a flawed standard, so obviously this person believes that they are unflawed in their opinion-- perfect. That's all I was saying.

    I'm sorry CW for making you think that I was including everyone in this opinion. I think you have recently become much more open, and have been participating in the discussion in a very positive manner, as have Caro and Marjorie. I don't mind if people disagree with me, just as long as they don't do so in a blatantly judgmental, hurtful manner (like Mary). Thank you for pointing out that the way in which I stated my opinion was not clear.

    — QS · 2007-06-20 09:33 · #

  267. Caro, now i think you ought to begin to use your brain and heart, Mary does not say she is perfect of what I read, she says what she means about DD, that people has desires that is unhealthy.
    I am of the same opinion.
    I do love people,and respect them as human beings, that is not the same as I support alltheir doings.
    But by all means they can as grown ups do what they wanr, as lonf that it doesn`t hurt anybody or themselves.
    How can you know how it will be in the long term?
    I am not only conserned about the women in this relationship, but what does this do with the young men in the long term, with their soles.
    OK, some men loves this, but obviously there are some who needs a long time to be "used to it", and may be never does really.
    And if the love dies between the couple after some time, when they shall start on new again, they will have marks on their sole.
    I respect Mary`s right to have her opinion as much as I respect your legal right to live in this kind of relationship, and in fact she really have some points.

    — CW · 2007-06-21 04:20 · #

  268. CW,

    It is just that in my opinion, as, it seems, in QS's, Mary comes across as determined to completely and utterly ignore ANY opinion different from her own, and any explanation or post from anyone who disagrees with her. When anyone tries to reason with her or to ask her to consider the possibility that there might be another side to this question, she responds by repeating that her opinion is "right" and follows that up by making the same claims that everyone who wants to live in this way is either abusive or mentally ill. This is either calculated to be provocative and insulting to other people, or it is the result of ignorance and an unwillingness to consider the matter sensibly. It is not that she disagrees with DD that is the problem, but the dictatorial way in which she metaphorically 'yells 'her opinions in our faces but turns a deaf ear to the replies.

    The difference between this approach and the one taken by yourself and Marjorie is that you and Marjorie have raised legitmate concerns and have then listened to and considered the responses. While both of you remain against DD and concerned by certain aspects of the practise, you have also taken the trouble to read the discussion properly and to try to see the other side to the question. I cannot speak for QS, but for myself, I can respect an argument that shows intelligence, respect and consideration for others, but I cannot respect someone who tries to 'shout down' the opposition without any attempt to produce a reasoned or supported argument.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-06-21 11:35 · #

  269. I forgot to address your question, "How can you know how it will be in the long term?". My reply to that is to say that, as with any type of relationship, I cannot know where it will ultimately lead, especially where it concerns a young couple. However, there are many couples on DD forums who have been practising this for years and it does not seem to have harmed their relationships in the least. Yes, as QS says, and I have said before, there ARE people for whom DD goes wrong, but this is something that can and does happen in any kind of relationship and it isn't unique to DD.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-06-21 11:43 · #

  270. Yes, of course, no one knows about future,however some seems to follow a straight link that they follows all their years.
    What you chose in your youth,
    you will harvest in your old days. That is for eneyone.
    Have you heard about a "spanking fetish, by the way?
    "I think that is what leads to DD relations or lifestyle.
    Many says that they reacted in a certain way on spanking scenes on pictures, stories, movies or whatever.
    That is the answer to why this exist, and it comes from childhood, often when been spanking to much, or in wrong ways, situations.
    Sometimes it "runs in the family", but in some cases ones that never have been spanked begins to have fantasies about spanking related to their sexuality.
    A child is so vulnerable and the world is full of sin.
    Have you read "Open letter to Roy Lessin" by Bethany , dont remember her surname.

    RL has been written spanking books, for parents.
    He`s a jew that became christian and led many parents to torture their children.
    Her parents were his A students and she was tortured through her childhood, pretending that it didn`t hurt, because then she would have been spanked more,she had to pretend to be" cheerful".
    She got illnesses because of the spankings. She began to react sexually, and I `ve read about several more.
    Her story is heartbraking, but also about hope, it helped her a lot to write this letter.
    Read it!

    — CW · 2007-06-22 02:56 · #

  271. Caro, I think you take far to easy on which way DD relationship implies on peoples life.
    And for eventually later relationships.
    You can`t compare it with more usual and "normal"
    relationships.
    DD is more on the edge, even if there is seldom something like a perfect relation.
    I try also to imagine from a mans view who has been in a DD relation with spanking ( mostly DDers spank, many of them spank hard) because his girlfriend or wife wanted it first.
    Now he starts on new with another, not in DD, to live with the past must be difficult, maybe he would think; Wish I never had been in a DDr, I really didn`t like it so much but was afraid to lose my partner( many men are afraid of that these days)
    What we do, sets prints in our souls and life.
    When someone feels their been loved when their spanked hard and maybe have to be that before they feel love, there is something that is not healthy.
    I am not to judge, but I see it is unhealthy.

    From an everything else than a perfect woman.

    — CW · 2007-06-22 04:55 · #

  272. Yes, I've heard of a spanking fetish, but that is a just something that some people like to do as a part of their sex lives and it isn't the same thing as DD, which is a way of life which may, or may not include spanking. Even the people here who are against the principle of DD have said that in a sexual sense, spanking would be acceptable.

    With regard to Roy Lessin, first his books have nothing to do with consensual adult DD and secondly, you will find that some of his strongest opponents are people in DD communities. The man is, quite frankly crazy as far as I am concerned.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-06-22 23:24 · #

  273. Bethany ( Beth) Fenimore is her name, a woman in her late 30-es.

    — CW · 2007-06-23 01:55 · #

  274. CW,

    I do understand why you are concerned, but it seems that you are searching for problems where there are none. There is no more evidence that a DD relationship will lead to some kind of future disaster or regret than there is in the case of any other kind of relationship. If you can get away from the idea that this is something vastly unusual and momentous and simply see it simply see it as one of the many things that MIGHT happen consensually between a man and a woman, but wouldn't suit every couple, it isn't any different from anything else. I have known one man who became uncomfortable with the concept of what he felt was 'hurting' his wife. He told her this and they put the whole thing on hold. After a while they resumed the arrangement by mutual agreement. I'm not saying that a man NEVER starts this purely to please his wife, but compromise and adjustment to your partner's needs are a part of any successful relationship. If after a while he felt no better about it and didn't see any point or benefit, I doubt he would continue with it. However couples who do this for years seem to be at peace with it as a part of their lives and the scenario of regret that you describe doesn't seem to be a common problem.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-06-23 10:51 · #

  275. A spanking fetish is not normal, I don`t think anybody can live this life without having this fetish supplemented to a need for submission,surrendering to the man which is a need women have,I believe.
    Only that it here gets a twisted form, perverse from a need women are created in to have.
    It is not so strange that this has increased the latest years among many other strange things that has popped up.
    Have read some testimones from people on internet, nospanking sites, that tells about this fetish they have and they know why.
    It is late evening here were i live, so I stop here for the moment.

    — CW · 2007-06-23 15:19 · #

  276. I have read the 'Bethany' letter to which you refer and I have to say that it, more than anything I have ever read, epitomises the difference between the consensual agreement between adults that DD represents and the barbarous mistreatment and terrorisation of children and, lets face it, helpless babies. All I can do is to repeat that these things have NOTHING to do with DD and are diametrically opposed to EVERYTHING that DD stands for. I am also certain that no person who is associated with a real DD relationship would have anything to do with something as dangerous and twisted as this.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-06-23 15:46 · #

  277. CW,

    I don't believe that any kind of fetish is "on the increase". It is simply that today our communications and media are so much more extensive and efficient that these things are no longer easily swept under the carpet and hidden so that we are more aware of what is happening in the world. Similarly society in the Western world as a whole is more tolerant of what was once thought of as perverted behaviour. For example, it was illegal to have a gay relationship until relatively recently and now same sex marriage is permitted by law. Thus people who had to keep their sexual preferences a secret from society can now speak openly about them and the rest of us are more aware that such things exist.

    I feel that a 'fetish' is the business of the person who has it and it is only unhealthy if it begins to take over their lives and become more important than anything else. So long as it remains under control and does not impact people who don'y want to be affected by it then it is as 'normal' as it needs to be.

    In any case, DD is NOT a fetish but a consensual way of life chosen by the people in it. I think you are conpletely wrong when you say that it all about some kind of all consuming surrender of a woman to a man. There is SOME element of surrender in SOME selected areas, which you might say is on a par with the give and take that happens in most successfiul relationships, but the woman does not surrender totally to the man and she is still a person in her own right. She also still HAS rights and a say in the relationship. To my mind, you have DD mixed up with something like Domination and submission or Master/slave relationships which are something totally different and far removed from DD.

    To say that a spanking fetish involves any element of surrender and is therefore related to DD is even further removed from reality. People with a spanking fetish often enjoy both giving and receiving spankings so it just isn't a necessary or desirable part of that kind of 'scene' for anyone to "surrender" to anyone else.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-06-24 21:41 · #

  278. By the way, I too have read some testimonies from people who are supposedly "in recovery" from a spanking fetish. The particular one that comes to mind is one that I read about on a Christian site. This concerned a young couple who were perfectly happy to have this in their lives and just accepted it as something that was a part of them and did not worry about it, until a number of so called Christians on the site started to insist that it amounted to some kind of mortal and perverted sin. From this point on the wife began to rip herself apart with guilt and worry and became stressed out every time she had a thought about what came naturally to her. This was worsened when a so called counsellor from her church more or less told her that anything other tham missionary position sex with a decourous and controlled amount of passion was sinful and against the bible. Finally she was encouraged by a woman (who lectures anyone who tries to engage her protege in conversation), on the site to go to a 'prayer ministry' that has the pseudo Freudian opinion that all our 'non standard' sexual urges and other problems stem from something bad that happened in our childhoods and from which we need to be 'saved' by God. To my mind this search for and obsession with guilt and sin where there need be none is far more unhealthy than the light playful spanking that was happening before. Personally I also regard it as biblcally unsound in that the spanking in this case was a mutually enjoyable form of sexual foreplay for this couple and the bible says quite clearly that "the marriage bed in undefiled" which I take as meaning that sexual pleasure within marriage can be whatever a couple enjoy. I seriously don't believe that God means us to tie ourselves in knots and obsess about personal preferences that harm no-one and give a married couple enjoyment.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-06-24 22:12 · #

  279. Caro; I didn`t recigcnize your answer 23.06, 12.24, same day
    before posting mine on 4.
    19,the same day ( late evening for me, I was tired)
    I believe that there are limites for what you can do as a christian, also in the bed..
    There is something between missionary position and master and slave, in marriage you have the possibility to really enjoy sex and in the same time have some limits.
    But not everybody call themselves christians in deed are. In USA forinstance they are known as calling themselves christians far more easily than in my country.
    When you become a christian here it is something radical changings in your life from before you become one.
    There are not so many people calling themselves christians otherwise.
    In a daily christian newspaper here some weeks ago,
    I read that americans are superfiscial christians not knowing much about or reading the bible.
    It is a point there.
    I don`t think that we have showed that we have always the strength to handle it so well with our possibility with communications and medias so much more extensive, than it was forinstance when I was a child.
    Not every tecnichal development means that the humanly and moral development is good.
    We are week, like dust and therefore need God.
    Freud or not, he is not my favourite, do you really denye that childhood doesn`t effect our feelings, and sexlife in adult age?
    I mean our relationship to our parents, father and mother, then you denye the truth.
    They represent love ( also from God), to a little child, as we all have been.
    And many other things, in our first years they means everything to us.
    But you can work on it when you are grown up, then you must acknowledge.
    God is my best friend, he only wants good things for me.
    But he look a bit longer than we/I do.
    So we are not agree about limits, though we can enjoy and be " tigers" in bed.
    We have a very short time her on earth in our lifetime here.
    Focus more on the eternity!

    — CW · 2007-06-27 07:18 · #

  280. CW,

    Just as a matter of interest, had you realised that I am not an American either, but a European, born, bred and still living in Europe?

    I absolutely agree that there is more to married sex than just the missionary position and 'decorum'. I personally do not think the bible defines exactly what the limits are, but feel that it is left to common sense and mutual consideration to decide these things. However, I stand by the view that provided that it is not an obsession, it makes the couple happy, and it harms neither them nor anyone else, whatever the couple want to do should be acceptable and should not have to be measured by anyone else's limits. I cannot believe that God would have an interest in preventing sexual acts of this sort between a married couple.

    My feelings about the freudian concept are mixed. It is certainly true that we are influenced in many ways by the manner in which we are brought up and our relationships with our parents or carers. However there is evidence that not everyone follows in their parents' footsteps and that many people actual directly rebel against any elements of their own childhood that they felt was destructive to them and determine to live their own lives in a different way. After all, not everyone has family that shapes their lives in a good way. In the case to which I refer, if you read through her history on the site, it begins with a discussion in which people are talking about 'offbeat' sexual practises and in which she mentions that she and her husband occasionally indulge in gentle spanking as foreplay. It is quite matter of fact in nature and she is quite comfortable with it. Over a period of time you see her sink lower and lower into the depths of guilt amd turmoil until it gets to the point where she is so terrified that she is going to go to hell that she obsesses visibly and virtually fasts and prays every time she even thinks about the idea. I honestly think that this is wrong and I can't see how anyone could believe that God wants us to waste our lives on earth wallowing in self imposed guilt over something as harmless as that. I agree that God is our friend, and that is why I don't feel that this kind of useless self destruction and waste of life is what He would want for us. This isn't short term thinking, it's about the way we use our God given lives and where we go afterwards.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-06-30 10:49 · #

  281. Actually I don`t know about this story and havent a clue of which website you refer to.Did you say which one it was?

    Yes, God loves his children, they who are saved and others who are not and they who are not his children,to.
    But He is not always agree in all our doings, and sometimes he makes us feel that.
    You know as parents who wants to save their children for danger or wrong things.

    I shall not say anything about this couple or this woman,and her guilt, I haven`t read her story.
    But sometimes you can read between the lines, was it really like this?
    When I said that God is my friend it was ment as a personal testimony
    I am also his friend, a friendship cannot be only one way, then it is not a friendship, is it?
    That doesn`t mean I do all right.
    But I think that some of us ought to think about other things than just our one needs and our own desires, to sacrifice is a very importent part of to be a christian, and to find Gods will in things.
    He give you more back than you give to him, anyway.
    Peace and joy forinstance.

    If you really are saved, know that you are a sinner that deserves death, a death that the Lord took for you, you also receive a knew heart and gets really free!
    God doesn`t want for us to live out all our lusts that comes from uncleaness, he wants us to be free from that!
    It is also importent to have a real relation with the Lord ourselfs ,-not only via pastors.
    But He is not judging anybody for lusts and desires, only that you have to eat the fruit of it and The lord hates anything that comes between Him and us.

    And what do you mean with " happy", Caro.

    Lets not see only on this "sexual acts" you are refering to, but what is sexual acts in marriage before Gods eyes- ment to be? Isn`t ment to be a image of His covenant with us, then it may be a point to know God, so that wolves in sheepham comes and tells you a false story about who he is.
    It is warnings about people telling false evangelium in church(!)already in the acts of the apostels.

    And though God is loving he is also Great and we need to have
    awe for Him , He is not there only for us to give us candy, though He will meet our deep needs.He knows us better than ourself.

    But as you are referring to here: Over a period of time you see her sink lower and lower into the depths of guilt amd turmoil until it gets to the point where she is so terrified that she is going to go to hell that she obsesses visibly and virtually fasts and prays every time she even thinks about the idea."

    That is not Gods way.He doesn`t want her to struggle for eternity.
    Let her see at this thoughts and let her compare them with Gods thoughts and say;" how small these thougths are, they really don`t mean anything!
    Gods thougths are bigger, they are for eternity, not like this small thoughts!"
    She should find out herself about Gods will, ( and her own will) knowing that she is loved by Him just the way she is.
    And,do she love God?
    It is importent to be honest with ourselves, God likes that.

    He is not there to follow ours will ,it is for us to follow his, ( be his servants)- this is for christians.
    You have to be christian -it is impossible otherwise.
    But he will help us if we want it ourselves, always.
    This is for christians.








    And yet I see now, a great deal of christians,feeling that God is therefor them to fullfill their least wish, but He didn`t die for us on the cross just for us to be selfish.


    — CW · 2007-07-01 13:10 · #

  282. CW,

    It was on one of the Christian Forums, I think, 'The Marriage Bed' although it was a while ago and I cannot be sure after all this time. There may of course have been more to the lady's situation than met the eye, but this was how it APPEARED to myself and several others who followed her posts and story on the subject. To me this wasn't a healthy manifestation of Christian belief because it seemed that she had replaced something that was one small and relatively harmless part of her sex life with an obsessional and unnecessary guilt.

    I don't believe that a consensual and safe sexual act between two married persons is selfish or lustful in a bad way and I don't believe that God does either. The bible does not define in precise terms what we should or should not do and it is the human race that has decided that some things are 'normal' and others are not. This isn't a case of a person asking God to fulfill her wishes, but of someone asking God to change who she is.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-07-02 21:39 · #

  283. Guilt over being sexual at all probably fuels the poor women in CDD relationships, guilt that misues of Christianity has instilled into them. I shake with rage when I think of the men they "allow" to punish them. I wish those slime balls could be taken off the streets.

    What do the men have to do it they break the rules????

    Someone mentioned their diet being a house rule. What if the wife eats healthier than the husband, is she in trouble for being more healthy than him???

    Not eating in the living room as a "rule' for an adult??? That reduces a woman to a child status. I cannot imagine such a disfunctional relation existing without a seriously mentally ill woman being the victim.

    Once again, men who would opress a woman like this are evil. Period. I state this because it is absolutely true! A man should not be able to strike a woman except in self-defense. One who is willing to is sick and cruel and not capable of actual love. It takes an adult man to admit he is wrong, or accept that his wife can be wrong, these men have never matured. They use religion to be monsters.

    I tried to stay away from this site, but I am still so enraged by what is being done to women in this movement that I can't stay quiet. Afganistan in the US here we come, unless this is nipped in the bud.

    What size to you American slave gals wear in a Burqua?

    — Mary · 2007-07-11 09:00 · #

  284. Mary,

    All of these questions, including the misconceptions that DD is based on religion or invloves slavery, have been addressed over and over again by different people on this thread, but you seem completely oblivious to any other viewpoint but your own. DD is a consensual and mutual lifestyle CHOICE made by two sane, adult and free persons. No matter how many times you repeat your inaccurate perception, it is NOT something forced by on a weak and/or helpless person such as a child, by a stronger and more aggressive person.

    By all means have your say and express your opinion, because this is your right (and mine) under western law, but if you don't want Afghanistan to come to America, then don't try to curtail other people's, (and more especially women's) freedom of choice and speech and to force your personal ideals onto them. What you propose is more of a slave's "burka" than any mere piece of cloth.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-07-13 22:47 · #

  285. Mary:

    Can you please stop already? You have called us all names imaginable from "demented" to "sick" to "mentally ill." Personally, I'm sick of it. There really is no such thing as free speech anymore is there? Everyone is trapped behind a "socially correct" screen, and if anyone attempts to step out and share anything other than the "traditional values" they are PERSECUTED and CONDEMNED. Why do you even come to this board? Does it make you feel good telling me that I am a worthless human being because I found something that works in my relationship? I'm sorry you find me so unworthy of existence for my personal choices. Are you any less "sick and cruel" with your insensitive, judgmental words then these men you are condemning?

    Mary, for just one moment, take down your wall and look through my eyes. Can't you perhaps open your mind for one second and see that maybe there is a world other than the one you see? That there is a world where women are perfectly happy to live under their husband's guidance and discipline? That there are men who are capable of taking on the huge responsibility of Head in their household, over their wives wellbeing, safety, and discipline? All of the husbands I met on my forum (as many as commented) agreed that they disliked punishing their wives, but because their wife had ASKED them to be consistent over misbehavior, did so to please them. If I make a mistake or break a rule, it is very hard for me to remember the next time without some physical reinforcement. Just a "oh well honey, do better next time" tells me that he doesn't really care if I follow the rules or not, that I can simply do as I please as long as I "do better" next time. I feel extremely close to him when I know that he is going to punish me for wrongdoing and then hold me afterwards and reinforce his love for me, his pride in the fact that I submit to him, and his certainty that I will improve my behavior. I feel loved, cared about, and I know that there is a wall there to hold me up.

    I NEED boundaries in my life. I grow best when I know there is a "no crossing" zone. That is simply how I am. That is how I function, how I was created, and how I flourish best. There are women who cannot live the way that I do. That's fine. I'm not going to call them stubborn, prideful women who have rock hard hearts and no REAL love for their husbands. That's wrong for me to say just because I am different from them. There are women, however, who also need boundaries and rules, and correction for misbehavior. It is how we feel secure and loved, protected and important to our mates. Look online. There are countless anonymous women who express a desire to be held accountable, corrected in a loving, consentual manner, and kept within reasonable boundaries.

    If something makes someone happy, why is it wrong?

    If it brings people closer together, why is it evil?

    If it goes against society norms, why is it perverted?

    If it is not like YOU, why is it sick?

    I love my boyfriend with all my soul. One day I will pronounce before all the world that I have given myself to him, and he will accept my gift and the responsibility that goes with it. I have no problem promising to "love, honor, and obey" my husband. I have no issue following his loving guidance wherever he may lead me. If he asks me to walk through fire, I would do so, knowing that he would be on the other side to hug me and tell me how proud he is of me. I am HIS girl, and I am happy to be so.

    Mary, it hurts me that you disrespect who I am and what I believe simply because I am different from you. You have your world with your beliefs and practices, but this is mine. No one is asking you to live in my world, but please don't force me to live in yours. Leave me in the place where I can find peace and fulfillment. If you force me into your world, however wonderful it is for you, I will die. A rose cannot grow in the desert, nor can a cactus bloom in the rain forest.

    Mary, I know you probably won't read much of this, if any, but I'm glad I wrote it. I want to share with you how this CAN be a positive thing in a relationship where BOTH parties agree to it and it is done in a loving and mutually respectful manner. It is definitely not for everyone. Please don't pick and choose and twist my words to fit your predetermined conclusion. Take a minute and try to understand where I am coming from, ok? :-) Don't think of me as some drooling, sick maniac obsessed with pain and humiliation. I'm a rational, intelligent human being, just like you. I have thoughts, dreams, and hopes for the future. I have a loving family, and a man who I can give my entire life to. I deserve your respect and consideration, even if our views are different. In turn, I will try not to lash out at you in offense or talk sarcastically. I'm sorry for the times before when I have done this. I get angry sometimes at things people say. I'll work on that, ok? Please think about what I've said.

    QS

    P.S.: If a woman has a problem keeping a healthy diet, there is NOTHING wrong in asking her husband to help her do better in her eating habits. If you're fat, you go to a personal trainer to ask them for help right? So why not ask your husband? By the way, punishing for being "healthier than him" would be stupid and is entirely NOT in the spirit of DD, so I cannot imagine it ever being done.

    Oh yeah, and the living room issue (the one that I posted about) is simply an exercise in submission. If I love him, why would I choose to disobey him on such a simple thing? It's not me forgetting and being reduced to a childlike standing, it is me choosing my own will over the rules in the relationship (rules that are set there to help us grow and learn about each other). If I cannot choose to follow a simple rule like not eating in the living room, how can he trust me to follow any other, more important rules? Submitting builds trust for us, and trust is extremely important, wouldn't you agree?

    — QS · 2007-07-13 22:49 · #

  286. QS,

    I believe that Mary repeats these things with such venom and hate because, in her heart, she knows that her arguments against DD are based entirely on her own personal predujices and have no basis in fact. Since she has not the ammunition to convince people that she is right in a rational way, she has adopted a 'she who shouts the loudest' tactic in an attempt to drown all dissenters out.

    Before anyone observes that Mary makes some valid points, I will point out that, if she were prepared to put these to genuine discussion, I might agree, but as it is she only seems interested in belittling and damning other people and forcing them to follow her version of the 'one true way'. Sadly, one cannot have a real discussion with a person who is determined to impose their views on other people whatever the cost.

    Caro
    Caro

    — caro · 2007-07-14 23:34 · #

  287. Ok, wow, I truly cannot believe how long this debate has gone on. I found this site when I was researching possible cures for a rather harmless fetish I am not particularly fond of.
    Let me first say, It has taken me 2 days to read this, and it has got pretty interesting.
    To both Caro and Margot: I am so glad you have agreed to disagree. I think that is a strong key to our human development.

    When I first got on this site and started to read the posts, I was outraged that women would "lower" themselves to this kind of treatment. Even as a child I was very defiant, and beat (not severly, but hit with canes and such) quite often. I was raised by my grandmother and great-grandmother and never had a man in the household. So I believe that no man is superior. I do not respect men who abuse their wives. I believe we are equal. So, no, practicing a DD relationship would not be good for me. In fact, if I did, my husband and I would likely spank each other because I think everything must be fair- lol. Back to the story, I said that I was disgusted that women would go for this. So I kept reading on as I am very open minded even if I don't agree to it. I like to hear both sides of an argument.

    Here is what I found:

    My fist thought was that this of course, was abuse. Then if you read this is CONSENSUAL. Therefore, would not be classified as such. For instance, have you ever had a friend be serious in saying "Slap me if you catch me breaking my diet?" Well? Eventhough that is much lighter of a subject, how is that different? Hmmm?

    I am not saying that this does not increases the chance of it becoming an abusive relationship. It can be very easily if the parties involved are not stable and most of all "CONSENTING"-that seems to be a very overlooked word in this topic.

    I commend "QS" on this, she was open and honest. I feel that she has a good head on her shoulders eventhough I would not pratice her lifestyle. SHE WANTED THIS, so how is she abused? I see that what she is doing is trying to make her relationship work and better herself. I wish the absolute best for her and her soon to be husband and I pray that he is as sound of mind and heart as she says he is. If you read, they did stop practicing DD for a while, you will see it was consensual and NOTHING was forced.
    Ok, here is another point, some say that this is a sexual thing. Well, if you think about it, nearly anything can become sexual. Eventhough, this is a method of personal growth I could see how some would make the association.

    So, the thing about eating in the living room, or having her stick to a diet, they may seem odd to us, being supporters of feminine rights, but those are things they AGREED upon. "QS" herself, more than likely made up the diet rule because she is weight conscious and needed motivation. I know thats why I would do it.

    Anyway, the point I am trying to make, is YES, there are exceptions to everything. In this there are abusers, control freaks, etc... but what we should try to be open to is that not everybody has bad intentions. Not everybody is being abused. As you may have read, some couples relationships have been greatly enhanced because of this practice. What you should also keep in mind is that what works for some, does not work for all.

    If the pratice is being misused, then by all means, it should be stopped. I agree. We are adults and we are able to make our own decisions. As long as people are consenting this will not be stopped.

    Also, I read in a previous post about "Superficial" christians, now, I may have misread because this pages text is hard to read in some parts, but I think those who are "superficial" are those who go to church all the time just to say they do. I do not know many of the scriptures, but I do have a general understanding of the bible. If you want to consider me as one of the "superficial" ones you may, because in the end, it is God who will decide. I'm sure when we get to the gate, we won't play a game of "Name that scripture." In fact, I stopped going to church a while ago because I got tired of these so called "CHRISTIANS" that think everybody who lives other than how they do are not as religeous as they are. I think that a persons religion is between them and their higher power and it is not up to us to judge. Isnt "Thou shalt not judge" one of the commandments anyway? Sorry, had to vent about that. I mean, I don't read the bible as much as I should, but I repent and give thanks nearly everyday at times several times a day. I also help people when I can and would devote my life to charity if I could. So just because I don't go to church or find it neccessary to quote scripture, am I superficial?

    Okay, Im going to close for now, but will be back Im sure. The main point I have is that we should just accept people for the way they are and agree to disagree.


    — Alex · 2007-07-15 11:19 · #

  288. Ok, wow, I truly cannot believe how long this debate has gone on. I found this site when I was researching possible cures for a rather harmless fetish I am not particularly fond of.
    Let me first say, It has taken me 2 days to read this, and it has got pretty interesting.
    To both Caro and Margot: I am so glad you have agreed to disagree. I think that is a strong key to our human development.

    When I first got on this site and started to read the posts, I was outraged that women would "lower" themselves to this kind of treatment. Even as a child I was very defiant, and beat (not severly, but hit with canes and such) quite often. I was raised by my grandmother and great-grandmother and never had a man in the household. So I believe that no man is superior. I do not respect men who abuse their wives. I believe we are equal. So, no, practicing a DD relationship would not be good for me. In fact, if I did, my husband and I would likely spank each other because I think everything must be fair- lol. Back to the story, I said that I was disgusted that women would go for this. So I kept reading on as I am very open minded even if I don't agree to it. I like to hear both sides of an argument.

    Here is what I found:

    My fist thought was that this of course, was abuse. Then if you read this is CONSENSUAL. Therefore, would not be classified as such. For instance, have you ever had a friend be serious in saying "Slap me if you catch me breaking my diet?" Well? Eventhough that is much lighter of a subject, how is that different? Hmmm?

    I am not saying that this does not increases the chance of it becoming an abusive relationship. It can be very easily if the parties involved are not stable and most of all "CONSENTING"-that seems to be a very overlooked word in this topic.

    I commend "QS" on this, she was open and honest. I feel that she has a good head on her shoulders eventhough I would not pratice her lifestyle. SHE WANTED THIS, so how is she abused? I see that what she is doing is trying to make her relationship work and better herself. I wish the absolute best for her and her soon to be husband and I pray that he is as sound of mind and heart as she says he is. If you read, they did stop practicing DD for a while, you will see it was consensual and NOTHING was forced.
    Ok, here is another point, some say that this is a sexual thing. Well, if you think about it, nearly anything can become sexual. Eventhough, this is a method of personal growth I could see how some would make the association.

    So, the thing about eating in the living room, or having her stick to a diet, they may seem odd to us, being supporters of feminine rights, but those are things they AGREED upon. "QS" herself, more than likely made up the diet rule because she is weight conscious and needed motivation. I know thats why I would do it.

    Anyway, the point I am trying to make, is YES, there are exceptions to everything. In this there are abusers, control freaks, etc... but what we should try to be open to is that not everybody has bad intentions. Not everybody is being abused. As you may have read, some couples relationships have been greatly enhanced because of this practice. What you should also keep in mind is that what works for some, does not work for all.

    If the pratice is being misused, then by all means, it should be stopped. I agree. We are adults and we are able to make our own decisions. As long as people are consenting this will not be stopped.

    Also, I read in a previous post about "Superficial" christians, now, I may have misread because this pages text is hard to read in some parts, but I think those who are "superficial" are those who go to church all the time just to say they do. I do not know many of the scriptures, but I do have a general understanding of the bible. If you want to consider me as one of the "superficial" ones you may, because in the end, it is God who will decide. I'm sure when we get to the gate, we won't play a game of "Name that scripture." In fact, I stopped going to church a while ago because I got tired of these so called "CHRISTIANS" that think everybody who lives other than how they do are not as religeous as they are. I think that a persons religion is between them and their higher power and it is not up to us to judge. Isnt "Thou shalt not judge" one of the commandments anyway? Sorry, had to vent about that. I mean, I don't read the bible as much as I should, but I repent and give thanks nearly everyday at times several times a day. I also help people when I can and would devote my life to charity if I could. So just because I don't go to church or find it neccessary to quote scripture, am I superficial?

    Okay, Im going to close for now, but will be back Im sure. The main point I have is that we should just accept people for the way they are and agree to disagree. Isn't that what Jesus did?

    — Alex · 2007-07-15 11:47 · #

  289. Alex,

    Thank you! I think you have summed up the whole picture, 'warts' and all. DD isn't for everyone, is not perfect and could possibly be misused or lead to abuse, but, so long as it is private between a couple, completely consensual, and is used as a form of loving support, it isn't abusive or damaging and should be respected as a life choice.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-07-15 21:01 · #

  290. Alex,

    I just wanted to comment on a couple of things that you said here:-

    "being supporters of feminine rights"

    I wanted to say that, contrary to the way it may seem on the face of it, many advocates and practioners of DD, both male amd female, are also quite ardent feminists.

    None of us believes that a woman is a person of less worth than a man and none of us wants to go back to the days where a lifestyle like DD wasn't a choice, but a legal and moral obligation. Similarly, outside the home, none of us wants to be paid a lesser wage for doing a comparable or more difficult job than a man. However, what is ironical here is that feminists have fought long and hard to achieve equal freedom of speech and choice for women and yet in this debate, some posters want to deny those same freedoms to anyone whose choice doesn't tally with theirs. To me that isn't in the spirit of feminism at all.

    Secondly, you spoke of the possibility that DD can become sexual. I know that this is a long and arduous discussion and you cannot take in everything that has been said, but I think that you will find that none of denies that this thing, which occurs between two adults in a loving and intimate relationship, often does have sexual undertones. Similarly, we have not denied that some people indulge in, and enjoy, erotic spanking as an aside to DD.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-07-16 00:45 · #

  291. Hehe! I found the cure for garbled text----its called the "refresh" button-- haha. i feel like a dork

    — Alex · 2007-07-16 08:30 · #

  292. Back to this woman Caro felt so much for because her pastor had said that her and her husband shoudn`t been doing spanking in their sexlife, did I understand you right?
    In many different churchs and congrgetions they have seminars about almost all subjects ( as they don`t believe that people are able to read their bible by themselves, or maybe they are not shure that their members would find the truth without their teachers help.
    I`ve been member in one were they had seminars several times a year,it is money in that,you see.
    But the pastor get to selfish and was kicked out of the congregation at last
    -with some money.)

    It is popular with seminars about marriage and spouses and homelife, maybe the couple were on a seminar and got that teached, and afterwards went to the pastor? I`ve read books about christian marriage and sex in christian marriage and never read about it in the way Caro says.
    But the mission position as you descibe it as something boring has its advantages;
    you can get eyecontact and kiss from the person you have sex with (otherwise it is not pleasent with either eyecontact or kissing is it?)

    It seems clear to me if they or she was depending of spanking when they had sex,
    enerytime they had it, it is alarming.
    Then it is something they needed to get some help for.


    When I was about 20 and read a few books, my hubby at that time introduced me to Dostojevskij and some other books, I also read a book about sexual perversions written by a psychologist who had this people struggling with this perversions: -sadist ( his mom was brutal in his childhood)
    -machochist :( her father was reserved and when he spanked her he slapped her near her genetalies, I remember i read- I was twenty and had some interest of sex and wasn`t a christian by that time)
    There was a part of promiscious, too in this book, a woman i remenber.
    This was in the 70,es, and the attitudes about this things may have changed a bit since then, in 30 years.
    Now the attitude is that you can do everything , to get pleasure for your self- -we are our own small gods in our own eyes.

    I studied about my forfathers a while ago,poor fishermans mostly, their attitude where; "what we own to others", not "what others own to us".

    I know that Caro has rejected
    the fact that there is any connection between the childhood and this desires in sexlife.
    Also she makes a big differense between spanking and DD-way of living.
    I have to say that how much I look at it, I come to that this two things are so conneted to each other, it is almost impossible to apart it.
    I shall not say that chosing DD in a relationship is driven by a sexual desire, but I`ve read several testimonies on internet of people describing desires like " spanking fetish" from whom they have,causing from their childhood of parents misusing spanking and overdoe it in childaring,
    which is known in some parts of USA and other countries.
    ( even if it is forbidden in my country there are mistreatment and abuse here,too, but the fact is that it has an positively effect on most people)

    I also want to straight up a misunderstanding about the word " obey" in the bible.
    I`ve read from christians and certainly CDD using this word " obey" in womens submitting to their husband.
    This word is in the bible only used in children obeying their parents, eph.6,1-3.
    I read some very fantastic and imaginiative theoryes from an article from cdd about that, before mentioned on this topic of me,
    but I also think that Caro insists on that it is biblical using " obey" in this subject.
    Well, people can have all sorts of theoryes about womens submitting to her husband, also the biblical meaning of it.
    But using the rights words can be a start (not " obey)
    There is a differense between a grown up woman and a child, isn`t it?
    Even if it seems that anybody don`t get really grown up this days, either man or woman.



    — Christian Wife · 2007-07-17 03:50 · #

  293. Back to this woman Caro felt so much for because her pastor had said that her and her husband shoudn`t been doing spanking in their sexlife, did I understand you right?
    In many different churchs and congrgetions they have seminars about almost all subjects ( as they don`t believe that people are able to read their bible by themselves, or maybe they are not shure that their members would find the truth without their teachers help.
    I`ve been member in one were they had seminars several times a year,it is money in that,you see.
    But the pastor get to selfish and was kicked out of the congregation at last
    -with some money.)

    It is popular with seminars about marriage and spouses and homelife, maybe the couple were on a seminar and got that teached, and afterwards went to the pastor? I`ve read books about christian marriage and sex in christian marriage and never read about it in the way Caro says.
    But the mission position as you descibe it as something boring has its advantages;
    you can get eyecontact and kiss from the person you have sex with (otherwise it is not pleasent with either eyecontact or kissing is it?)

    It seems clear to me if they or she was depending of spanking when they had sex,
    enerytime they had it, it is alarming.
    Then it is something they needed to get some help for.


    When I was about 20 and read a few books, my hubby at that time introduced me to Dostojevskij and some other books, I also read a book about sexual perversions written by a psychologist who had this people struggling with this perversions: -sadist ( his mom was brutal in his childhood)
    -machochist :( her father was reserved and when he spanked her he slapped her near her genetalies, I remember i read- I was twenty and had some interest of sex and wasn`t a christian by that time)
    There was a part of promiscious, too in this book, a woman i remenber.
    This was in the 70,es, and the attitudes about this things may have changed a bit since then, in 30 years.
    Now the attitude is that you can do everything , to get pleasure for your self- -we are our own small gods in our own eyes.

    I studied about my forfathers a while ago,poor fishermans mostly, their attitude where; "what we own to others", not "what others own to us".

    I know that Caro has rejected
    the fact that there is any connection between the childhood and this desires in sexlife.
    Also she makes a big differense between spanking and DD-way of living.
    I have to say that how much I look at it, I come to that this two things are so conneted to each other, it is almost impossible to apart it.
    I shall not say that chosing DD in a relationship is driven by a sexual desire, but I`ve read several testimonies on internet of people describing desires like " spanking fetish" from whom they have,causing from their childhood of parents misusing spanking and overdoe it in childaring,
    which is known in some parts of USA and other countries.
    ( even if it is forbidden in my country there are mistreatment and abuse here,too, but the fact is that it has an positively effect on most people)

    I also want to straight up a misunderstanding about the word " obey" in the bible.
    I`ve read from christians and certainly CDD using this word " obey" in womens submitting to their husband.
    This word is in the bible only used in children obeying their parents, eph.6,1-3.
    I read some very fantastic and imaginiative theoryes from an article from cdd about that, before mentioned on this topic of me,
    but I also think that Caro insists on that it is biblical using " obey" in this subject.
    Well, people can have all sorts of theoryes about womens submitting to her husband, also the biblical meaning of it.
    But using the rights words can be a start (not " obey)
    There is a differense between a grown up woman and a child, isn`t it?
    Even if it seems that anybody don`t get really grown up this days, either man or woman.



    — Christian Wife · 2007-07-17 03:50 · #

  294. Thanks Caro!

    Ok, my fault. I used the "feminine rights" term cause I couldn't quite describe what I meant, and also to shorten the post. Lol.

    So I re-read it, and am going to TRY to rephrase things the best way possible. Hope I make sense 

    When I said that, I more or less was referring to my own preferences. I see that certain posters MAY think the same way as I do about others setting boundaries for us, except that some of the others aren't open minded.

    However, this is just my opinion. I believe that when they see the male taking charge they go on the offense because they see it as a threat. For the same reasons many men just will not accept a woman who is in authority. Perhaps the females are chauvinist at times- I guess that’s where my use of the phrase "feminine rights" came into play. I’m not saying that all feminists are chauvinists though.

    Take me for example, I love my husband very much and would do anything to make him happy. However, I have always been a bit chauvinist. I wasn’t much of one, but I was always in competition with guys about everything. If I didn’t think I was better at something, or thought they were being favored, I would take it personal and would become bitter over it. On occasion it had really hurt my relationship. So I worked on stopping it because it broke my heart to see I had upset the one I love. Also, when he would "tell" me to do something instead of “asking” me I would get offended because I have control and trust issues and I am afraid of being abused and taken advantage of. So when I would get told what to do, of course, I would go on the offense because to me, it felt as though he was trying to own me.

    About Sex:

    Yeah, to me, this shouldn’t be confused with a PURELY SEXUAL practice such as BDSM. I see it as the lifestyle that it is, though I have noticed that some posters do want to compare it and call it some sort of perversion. Regarding those who practice DD, I think it is just their way of life and is not for sexual pleasure, it is used to enhance their relationship in all ways- (which I’m sure LEADS to better love making because the bond gets stronger) and also because they, just like the rest of us want to better themselves and sometimes need help in doing so.

    I mean, a positive thing about this, is the participants know what is expected of them and are probably less likely to fight. I previous person had posted “…a woman looking at her husband with fear in her eyes…” I think that maybe the wife might think “Crap! I did it again!” but she generally wouldn’t be fearful. Here is why. This is CONSENSUAL. So fear probably wouldn’t be much of an issue. If she wanted that punishment, then it’s not abuse. That means her and her husband agreed upon those rules, she knows what was expected, and it’s not like the husband it spanking her just for the heck of it. If that were the case, then yeah, I would consider that abuse.

    This is to people who want to blast me:

    I think that a big reason why some people can’t fathom this is because of control and trust issues, and then there are people who just refuse to see anything any other way except for theirs. We all know a few. That’s what I don’t understand. What is to tell us what is right or wrong anyway? Please don’t say the bible. Yes, the bible has GUIDELINES like DON’T JUDGE and such, but as far as specifics go, the bible can be interpreted many ways. Every denomination is different. For instance, some believe that one baptism is sufficient, while others argue we should do it more often. It doesn’t mean one is right or wrong, it just means that they are different. So I think it is up to us in the end to use our brain and make the best decisions for what we think is right and wrong.

    I don’t see a problem with this as long as it is well constructed, and done only with pure intentions, also for the people to be of sound mind. People cope with companionship issues in different ways, all of which could be abused. Some argue, some don’t speak to each other, some practice DD, and some, unfortunately, just get drunk, fight, and wake up in jail the next morning. My husband is a very quiet person and I tend to be the one who voices my opinion more, eventhough I wouldn’t practice DD, I would love to know what he expects because that would prevent many of the arguments we have and will have.

    If you haven’t thought about it, everybody has their own method as to which they discipline themselves. If doing it ourselves doesn’t work, then we often seek help. It is more consistent that way. We can’t “cheat” and one would be more likely to accomplish their goal. If somebody was to do something undesired to me every time I broke my diet, or they made a meal plan that I HAD to follow, I wouldn’t mind. They would be doing me a FAVOR because I WANTED IT. I guarantee that it would be enough motivation to keep me on track. Even though it is in a much lighter sense, that is the general concept. I by all means don’t consider myself brainwashed, perverse, or sick in any way. Just in need of help with my diet plan because I have dieted for years without results. Not that out of the ordinary right?

    I know this was long, but if it helps somebody understand a little better, then it served a purpose.

    — Alex · 2007-07-17 09:53 · #

  295. Yes, this discussion has really last for a very long time and myself has been posting on this topic quite a while,since 6 month back or something.
    I was then overwhelmed by impressions after seen that crap you find on different open DD sites,- which has been explained to me here ;is not the same as what they who has contacts in these environments, knows.
    Because those sites are not very much different from plain spankingsites,really.

    I was rather "openminded " myself but the message in this thing don`t appeal to me, how
    CONSENSUAL it may be.
    I don`t think that CONSENSUAL thing always justify everything in life.
    Even when the fact is that the women often introduce it for their men.I only think that this men are weak and some cowards, really, because they so easily and seems so often have no real meaning of anything in life and let themselves be lead by women.
    To many men are like that.
    This is really a challenge and a responsibility for the woman to no push or go to others to get " help" behind his back.
    I wonder how CONSENSUAL you can say this is for the men, then.

    It is two reasons why I have brought the bible to this topic;
    I was so overwhelmed and disgusted by the article I found on the CDD site, and second; I responded
    to Caro on something she brought in -about a christian couple.
    And Alex- it is not true that the bible only have some guidelines, it is more than that with the bible- but if people misuses this guidelines
    to lead others in a wrong way, for their own advantages and so on, they are in deed under judgement.

    People can do about everything they want, but it all has a costs in the end for everybody.

    I could say much about things posted here, QS`s last one,- a question to you QS; do you feel a call to be a DD missionary or something, -then I really hope you fail.
    Then you dders love to tell about how you do this and that, who is really interested in where you eat or when you go to the toilet, forinstance.

    It is something very odd about that, this exhibition you read on some sites, they love to tell about how their spouse uses the belt on them, how the belt looks like and so on.

    To me DD-lifestyle can go to hell, where it comes from.



    — Johanne ( CW) · 2007-07-19 02:11 · #

  296. QS,

    I probably didn't make it very clear, but the circumstances were these:-

    A married couple were occasionally indulging in some fairly low key and gentle spanking purely on a sexual basis and not as a part of DD. They regarded this as just one of many forms of pleasurable foreplay and it was neither an obsession nor a source of guilt.

    A discussion about this subject arose on a non DD Christian forum where the wife was a member and she posted about this part of her sex life. Most people considered it acceptable between a maried couple. However, some posters were quite agressively against it and began to cite reasons why she and her husband should not be allowed to do this.

    Eventually, mainly because of the influence of one particularly opinionated woman she became completely consumed with guilt about this activity. The woman in question led her to the online 'ministry' where they brought up the semi Freudian theories that confused her and 'guilted' her even more (incidentally, you have to pay to join this place) and from there she went to the local church counsellor (not minister) who told her that the only type of married sex that was acceptable was the missionary postion style if performed with decorum and without too much passion.

    Result: She went from being a woman who enjoyed regular and pleasant sex with her husband to someone obsessed with feelings of guilt, fear and sin about doing what comes naturally.

    Secondly, I have not rejected the theory that SOMETIMES a liking for adult spanking or a wish for DD stems from childhood experiences. Nor have I said that spanking, even in DD can't be a fetish or has nothing to do with sexual feelings. What I have rejected is the notion that it is ALWAYS a bad thing that stems from bad childhood experiences or that it is ALWAYS a fetish inextricably tied up with DD. Spanking/DD are like anything else, there are good relationships and experiences and bad ones and they are dependent on all kinds of different factors in people's lives and personalities.

    With regard to the word 'obey' in the bible, it depends which translation you read. Some say "obey", others say "submit", and the original Greek says neither, although some people feel that the phrasing implies the same thing. What you believe when you read this has to be dependent on your OWN understanding of the scriptures. The only thing that I object to is when people take two passages that use much the same words in the same context and then, according to what they wish to believe, say that they mean two distinctly different things, This to me smacks of manipulation for convenience.

    Finally, yes, there is a difference between a child and an adult in relation to DD. The difference is that the adult has choice and the powers of reasoning to decide what she/he does or does not want to do, and the child has NO choice and lesser powers of reasoning.

    Caro


    — Caro · 2007-07-19 17:40 · #

  297. Sorry it's taken me so long to post. I was kinda done, but kept reading for a while. I thought that since a question was directed at me by "Christian" Wife, I should probably respond.

    ______________________________________

    Alex- Thank you for your encouragement. It has been a difficult road, but we are working through it together. I am daily amazed at how much my trust of my b/f has grown over the past months. Thanks to his patience and consistent encouragement I've stopped fibbing to him, and my health has become a priority with me once again. Thank you again for looking at this with an open mind, even though you don't practice DD. I wish more people could at least disagree with DD with the same kind of grace and respect with which you discuss it. It has been a pleasure to post with you.

    ____________________________

    Caro- You are one of the most patient people that I have ever met online or in RL. The fact that you still discuss everything evenly and respectfully amazes me every time I read one of those negative responses directed at you. You are an inspiration. :-) Also, was your last comment directed to me, 'cause I understood what you were talking about with that couple... just wondering.

    ____________________________

    CW-

    Um... ok. First, I don't remember saying anything about wanting to be a "DD missonary," so I have no idea where that came from. Also, how is sharing about my experiences in DD telling you about when I eat or go to the bathroom? You have made no sense whatsoever.

    I love to talk to people and share about things that I am interested in, but I don't see how that is being a "missionary." If that were the criteria, that would make Opara and Maury missionaries too...

    What's wrong with supporting something that I practice? I have read enough articles, participated in enough discussion boards, and been a member of the DD community long enough to have some kind of relative opinion about it.

    What do you want me to do CW? Do you want me to stop posting? Should I just staple my lips together while people inflict their judgmental views on everyone? I am proud to stand up for my choices and my community! So, why can't I speak? What makes it wrong for me to share my experiences in DD with other people? Not long ago you said that my DD relationship seemed mature and good for me, but now you accuse me, basically, of "preaching" DD. To preach is to attempt to lead others to your point of view. How can I be preaching when I HAVE SAID OVER AND OVER AGAIN THAT THIS IS NOT FOR EVERYONE?

    I have repeatedly stated how my opinions on DD are my OPINIONS and that I shared my experiences so that there can be a REAL LIFE example in this discussion on how a DD relationship CAN be a good thing. In case you haven't noticed, all the other DD practitioners LEFT THE DISCUSSION MONTHS AGO after being literally attacked because of their views. I don't know why I didn't do the same. I kept saying that I was going to leave, but then kept coming back again. That was stupid of me.

    I simply wanted to share MY story, to give an example. I am not a "DD missionary" nor do I plan to become one. I am extremely hurt that you feel this way about me.


    -Quiet Strength-

    — QS · 2007-07-23 08:43 · #

  298. Sorry everyone. I'm feeling really hurt right now, and a little angry. I hope my words were not overly offensive (although I meant every sentence). I may check back to this thread some other time in the future. But I am now 100% done posting. I wouldn't want to be taken for a "DD missionary" for writing my opinions.

    QS

    — QS · 2007-07-23 08:50 · #

  299. Johanne,

    I have to admit that I really don't understand your objection to what is a private and consensual activity between husband and wife. As adults, and provided that it affects no-one else, they surely have every right to live their lives in the way that they consider to be the best way for them. Similarly, while it is your genuine belief that DD is harmful and will have an adverse effect, there is absolutely no evidence to support this belief.

    I think that we have pretty well established that, while in several places, the bible does define the relationship between man and wife, it neither endorses, nor prohibits the use of physical chastisement by a husband on his wife. I respect that you believe that the choice of a DD lifestyle is 'misuse' of the scriptures, but I do not agree. Similarly, there is Whether the people concerned will be 'judged' for living their lives in this way is for God and not us to decide.

    Each of the people who have posted in support of DD and/or of free choice, INCLUDING Q/S, have also been abundantly clear on the fact that is not for everyone. As far as I can see everyone here has simply expressed their own personal views on this subject and no-one has 'preached' or behaved like a 'missionary'.

    I do not know where you came up with these odd ideas about diet, toilet habits, belts and clandestine relationships, but I am sure that, if you have read something of that sort, it wasn't on an open forum like this one, and probably wasn't one devoted to DD as opposed to BDSM or sexual spanking.

    No-one is asking you to agree with the choice of a DD lifestyle and no-one is asking you to pursue it yourself, and for this reason, I don't understand why you feel the need for such a crusade against a personal choice.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-07-23 22:25 · #

  300. Caro, when I said misuse scriptures it was not nececarily ment about DD, life is more than DD , and in fact I don`t think that DD is that interesting.
    But of course when "Ned" in his article on Leah Kells CDD-site, which woman I think is weird, and suffer from unrealstic thoughts and twisted mind,-this "pastor" Ned really tried to make the bible in a most manipulative way explain and fit into CDD.
    But of course that is not you.
    Now it is also a bit uncomfortable to read and post here because it takes ages to reach the last postings caused of this topics long lasting- so; I don`t care to follow this discussion anymore.You have quite rigtht Caro, that our childhood does`t need to effect everything in our lives, it is always more than one explanation te everything.
    We also always have a choiche ond our own responsibility in our choiches. Therefore I admire honest people who looks the truth right in the eye, also about themselves and do the right solutions.
    I haven`T cared to read QS`s last posting properly, I am finished with discussing here, but I can explain about what I meant about " DD missionary"-
    QS ., I misunderstood you , thought you wrote something about " many others could need to live in DD".
    But I don`t think you shall buy everything you learn from your sources that there is anonymous growing thousands of
    people desire and want this lifestyle. How can they really know? I recognize something I have seen before, from many different environments, " we are growing", beacause you get a bit partial of one idea for which environment you are in-
    beliving you are in something bigger than it is.I have heard that " song" ( or sound?) before.
    It is very often an illusion.
    So I withdraw myself from this discussion,finding it "overfed" ,-overexpound.
    You all know my place of stand in this by now,anyway, and for me I only get more and more strenghtenth in it however.



    — Johanne · 2007-07-25 06:38 · #

  301. Johanne,
    You are a very insightful woman who gets her message across. You are right the fact that it is consenual does not make it right it is still starting an unequal balance of power in the male female relationship. It bothers me I believe women fought for their rights and for women to give up those rights bothers me. Except they are entitled to live as they wish as long as it is their choice not something forced upon them.
    I also think the need that women have for this is deep rooted from child hood. You are right we carry it with us our entire life. Have a wonderful life you are a good person

    — Marjorie · 2007-07-26 18:51 · #

  302. Marjorie,

    A consensual agreement is one that is made between two parties of equal power and status and which therefore does not imply inequality but precisely the opposite. I understand that you are saying that, in the case of a DD HOH relationship this would LEAD to change in the balance of power, but, in fact, because consensuality remains a condition throughout the relationship, the fundamental balance of power doesn't change at all. What happens during the course of a DD relationship is that the woman voluntarily defers to the man in certain agreed areas, rather in the way that the junior partner in a firm might defer to his or her superior in matters that were beyond his or her personal remit. Just as the junior partner might take the decision to resign if the relationship wasn't working and he/she felt that the decisions were consistently bad, a woman in a DD relationship can also choose to 'resign' from DD if it isn't working well for her or for the relationship. As such, we all have a degree of power and control over what happens in our lives, but, DD relationship or otherwise, it is the way of the world that this isn't always equal.

    I also don't see it as a case of giving up rights that other women have fought for. As I understand it, the feminist movement didn't and doesn't work towards the principle of granting us rights in specific areas, but in generally granting us equal rights and freedom with men to choose how we want to lead and direct our lives. For some women, the adpotion of a DD lifestyle is simply how THEY want to use that precious and hard won freedom of choice. I agree that it wouldn't be the right choice for everyone, but it is nevertheless as much of a choice as any other.

    You probably hadn't seen my most recent reply to Johanne when you wrote your last comment, but, in fact, I conceded to her view that childhood experiences and relationships CAN have an influence on our adult lives and often do. However, there is no particular evidence that the kind of childhood experiences to which she refers encourage people to seek DD relationships or to enjoy sexual spanking in their adult lives. Certainly on a large DD discussion group, you will find a few women who were abused as children, but you will find far more who were never spanked, let alone abused, and who were brought up by loving and caring parents. In my experience, the proportion of people on DD groups who have experienced abuse in childhood or in previous adult relationships is about the same as it is in any other type of relationship forum and there doesn't seem to be a prevalence of this kind of thing associated with DD.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-08-02 22:30 · #

  303. Infidelus Maximus has a great scenario of what DD is emotional and physical abuse.

    — Harley Girl · 2007-09-05 06:32 · #

  304. "Infidelus Maximus has a great scenario of what DD is emotional and physical abuse. "
    ______________________________________________________________________

    Actually, Harley Girl, Infidelus Maximus makes the same mistake as many of the posters here. Basically, he (is Infidelus Maximus a 'he'?) ASSUMES that, because CDD/DD isn't primarily about sexual play, but about reality, it cannot be wanted and needed by both partners within a relationship and therefore be a source of fulfillment and satisfaction for them.

    If you chose to regard a free and consensual choice of private lifestyle made by two consenting adults of sound mind as "emotional and physical abuse" then I am sure from previous experience that I cannot change your mind, but it continues to mystify me that so many people who advocate freedom of choice and personal rights are not prepared to accept, or even respect, other people's right to make THIS choice for themselves.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-09-07 18:50 · #

  305. GET SOME HELP IT IS ABUSE. Who ever promotes this on the internet should be arrested.

    — Harley Girl · 2007-09-15 07:23 · #

  306. Sorry Harley Girl, but we've been through this whole non-argument before. Abuse is when one person forces a non consensual mental or physical hurt on another person. DD, on the other hand, is an entirely consensual and wanted agreement between two fully competent adults. Just because you don't approve of this choice of lifestyle doesn't make it abusive.

    If you care to read the entire discussion, you will also see that, unless you search SPECIFICALLY for the term "Domestic Discipline", which requires prior knowledge of that term and what it means, it is pretty difficult to accidently stumble on information about this way of life. The sites and forums (most of them private and purposefully excluded from all search engines) are there if you know where to look, but it is hardly "promotion" if you have to search them out.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-09-15 15:47 · #

  307. You are promoting something that is not legal in most states in the United States of America. We have laws to protect people that cannot protect themselves. We send people to jail for sending porn on the internet we need laws to keep lunatics like you off the internet and locked up. So your demented ideas cannot harm other women.

    — Harley Girl · 2007-09-15 20:13 · #

  308. My mama always said if it smells like ---- it is ----.
    A man hits a lady it is abuse.
    This sure smell like a bunch of ----- to me.

    — Harley Girl · 2007-09-17 13:20 · #

  309. "You are promoting something that is not legal in most states in the United States of America."

    First, since you do not appear to have bothered to read any of the things on which you are supposedly commenting, I repeat that no-one is "promoting" anything.

    Secondly, in 99% of American states there is no law that says a couple cannot engage in CONSENSUAL DD, BDSM, spanking, D/s or any other non harmful pursuit in the privacy of their own homes. In the remaining 1%, police called to a reported disturbance are obliged to make an arrest, but in most cases, if and when the matter comes to court, no convinction is made once the sitaution becomes clear.

    "We have laws to protect people that cannot protect themselves."

    Absolutely. However if a woman decides that she wishes to adopt a DD lifestyle with her partner or husband, she is a woman who has made a choice and not a person "who cannot protect herself".

    "We send people to jail for sending porn on the internet"

    Actually - no we don't. Adult porn is perfectly legal on the internet and there are thousands of sites to prove it.

    " we need laws to keep lunatics like you off the internet and locked up."

    This is rather a sweeping disgnosis from a person who has posted two sentences to a blog on the internet and clearly hasn't read the rest of the discussion. Perhaps YOU are a lunatic who should be locked up since you clearly have delusions about your ability to judge other people's lives without the slightest modicom of knowledge. Thank heavens the powers that be have a little more sense and respect for people's privacy and rights.

    "So your demented ideas cannot harm other women."

    You mean so that other women cannot read about these things for themselves and make the choices that they wish from an informed point of view? Okay, if you say so, then it must be right.

    "My mama always said if it smells like ---- it is ----."

    Well perhaps your mama should have kept her nose out of other people's s**t and taught her daughter to show respect for other people's right to privacy.

    "A man hits a lady it is abuse."

    Okay, so let's start with the easy version. A woman tells her husband that she likes to be spanked because it turns her on. He spanks her and they have great sex afterwards. That's abuse? Okay - whatever you say.

    If a man and a women sit down together and jointly decide that they want to adopt DD as a way of life including spanking in certain agreed circumstances, that's abuse?

    I repeat "Abuse is when one person forces a non consensual mental or physical hurt on another person. DD, on the other hand, is an entirely consensual and wanted agreement between two fully competent adults." I'm sorry, but I can't explain it any more clearly than that.

    "This sure smell like a bunch of ----- to me."

    As above, if you don't like the smell then simply keep well away from the pile.

    Caro


    — Caro · 2007-09-18 00:05 · #

  310. Actually this thread has been quite a revelation to me in terms of the way people think. On the one hand, we have had reasoned, informed and sensible arguments for and against DD, and on the other we have had people metaphorically stamping their feet and waving their arms around, diagnosing madness and abuse and virtually screaming,

    "Off with their heads!"

    at anyone who disagrees with or tries to reason with them. I DO see violence, repression and abusive behavior, but it certainly isn't coming from the direction of the advocates of DD.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-09-18 00:22 · #

  311. I know that alot of women are survivors of sexual abuse as children, me being one of them. There is a connection to not feeling good about yourself and feeling you deserve to be punished. This I know because I got help for my problems. So you promote to other women who may have been abused as children this type of ----. These women need love more then most so they allow some man to dominate them and control them. It is a sinful thing you and your friends are promoting. I ran into this ---- searching for information on sexual abuse. You have to meet your maker one day he is the only person who has the right to make choices for you.
    THE END

    — Harley Girl · 2007-09-18 05:44 · #

  312. As with the other points you have raised, the question of the connection between childhood victims of abuse and adults who choose to live a domestic discipline lifestyle has been discussed in detail on this thread. In fact, there is no evidence whatsover to suggest that there is any more connnection with childhood abuse and this choice of lifestyle than there is with any other choice of liefestyle. In short the proprtions seem to be pretty much the same as in any other walk of life as a whole with no special allocation for the DD world.

    I am glad that you got help for what was obviously a problem for you, but you cannot assume that, because you personally feel this way, the same applies to thousands upon thousands of couples who make the consensual decision for DD.

    "You have to meet your maker one day he is the only person who has the right to make choices for you"

    Exactly Harley Girl; and because such choices are between these people and God they are not for you to judge.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-09-18 13:23 · #

  313. You are still stuck here, Caro?
    Oh, yes, Caro, she is the one to judge here, above you, because she has felt this on her own body, unlike you.
    You are playing a game on internet, and don`t seem to have all the knowledge in the world.
    Because all you know is your perverse friends and yourself. Keep them!
    It is so stupid to give you, and this theme any attention because he theme is so pathetic and laughable.

    And: you have no real competence, if you have you lies about it.
    Your mind is corrupted,Caro.
    I am not going to give this any more attention, and suggest to others not bothering either.







    — Johanne · 2007-09-25 10:05 · #

  314. Hi again Johanne,

    I wouldn't describe myself as "still stuck here", since I have a full time job, a family, a social life and all that goes with those things. I simply call in and read on occasion and respond when I feel that I have something to say. The fact that you have read my comments and Harley Girl's suggests that you do much the same.

    Just for the record, Harley Girl did not say that she had "felt this on her body"; she said that she had been sexually abused as a child and that, consequently, she felt worthless as an adult. As you did earlier on in the discussion, she rightly suggested that there can SOMETIMES be a connection between this and adult behaviour. I don't dismiss this as trivial or unimportant, and I never have. I'm honestly glad that Harley Girl recognised that this was a problem in her own life and sought help to put it right. However, it doesn't make logical or feasible sense to suggest that, because it was the case for her, the thousands of couples who make the voluntary and free will choice for a DD lifestyle ALL do so because they were abused as children. Nor is there the slightest shred of evidence to collaborate that view.

    Harley Girl then judged wholesale any and every person who practises or advocates DD as "sinful", and followed that personal judgement up by telling us that "only God can judge". I felt that this contradiction in terms merited a response and so I gave it one.

    with regard to your opinion of me, all I can say is that I'm an ordinary person, with a normal life and ordinary real life and internet friends, SOME of whom happen to be in consensual and perfectly happy DD lifestyles.

    Finally, whether you or anyone else reads or posts on this blog has nothing to do with me. You do so entirely by your choice as I do by mine.

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-09-25 21:53 · #

  315. Caro,
    Have you ever considered getting into therapy as to why you allow a man to abuse and control you. You sit on this site and claim all is well in your life and the other women that practice DD. Then why do you live in a closet you should openly admit your life style. Gay people have no problem telling people they are gay. The answer is because deep down inside you know it is something damaged in this life style. I urge you to get help. Then maybe you could help some of the women you and your friend's have damaged.

    — Harley Girl · 2007-09-29 21:15 · #

  316. Hi Harleygirl,

    The only problem with your theory is that I'm not actually in a DD relationship myself - I just happen to have some perfectly ordinary friends who are. From my dealings with them both on DD forums and in real life, I have formed the opinion that the consensual DD lifestyle is a viable choice which can be fufilling and happy for the people who choose it.

    There are two reasons why they don't flaunt their private lives. The first is because they get the kind of hostile and agressive reaction they have experienced on this blog, which is in fact remarkably similar to the reaction gay people USED to get until society accepted that homosexuality is a fact of life and isn't 'catching'. The second is because DD is a private choice which is made between two consenting adults within their personal relationship and they have no desire to influence those for whom it would be the wrong choice. Come to that, since they don't wear labels and it isn't always obvious, how can you be certain that ALL gay people are open about that fact and, by the same token, how can you know for sure that you don't know anyone who practises DD or whose lifestyle isn't entirely conventional? The fact is that it's infinitely possible that you do but haven't realised it because they seem perfectly 'normal'

    Caro

    — Caro · 2007-10-05 20:08 · #

  317. Someone, I can't be bothered to go back to find out who shouted.

    "GET SOME HELP IT IS ABUSE. Who ever promotes this on the internet should be arrested."

    I'm in a dd relationship, and I'm very happy. I instigated it and I encourage it to be deeper. It works for me and my husband. I get off on power and control. I would recommend it to anyone who is that way inclined. If you are not don't try it you'll hate it.
    Oh no I just promoted dd. Shock horror. Oh well I'll have to just turn myself in to the cyber police I guess.


    — ddornotdd · 2007-10-19 12:30 · #

  318. This is all really silly to me...this whole debate...I belong to a number of different PRIVATE DD groups and I love them...I contribute often and I have met many friends there (and yes I do have friends and a 'normal' regular life outside of my dd groups)..I work in a normal job...I pay normal bills...I am not religious...I don't belive in religion (another story for another day)...I like to be spanked by my husband...it turns me on...it turns him on...we do it privately...we have no children...sometimes we even have great sex after a spanking session!!!...Bet you wanted to know that since you apparently have the right to lable me as 'cultish', 'childish', 'brainwashed'..etc. etc. etc....

    Please just stop beating a dead horse...

    So what..some women like to be spanked!!...OOoooo

    You don't...that's great...get over it!

    — JustAGurl · 2007-10-20 07:30 · #

  319. If you all want to get pervy with spanking fetish go right ahead. Just quit trying to pretend it has anything to do with being a believer in JC or following His ways. Just call it what it bes: you all bes kinky BDSM ppls. That bes ALL.

    — Moriah Conquering Wind · 2008-03-24 04:14 · #

  320. Hi Mariah Full of..oops, sorry, that should be, "Conquering Wind",

    Thank you for your intelligent and mature comment. Until I read it I had not realised that my personal relationship with God was dependent on your approval of my views on the DD lifestyle. If you'd like to point me to the place in the bible where it says that people with "pervy", "fetish", "kinky" or "BDSM" lifestyles shall be judged on their faith according to the word of
    Moriah Conquering Wind, I'll be on my way. Until then, I'll continue to put my trust in the Lord.

    Many thanks,

    Caro

    — Caro · 2008-03-27 17:22 · #

  321. Oh fuck off Caro, you brass plated self-serving fucking hypocrite. You bes like every other stinking hairless monkey on this planet, all full of self-righteousness and incapable of seeing the person you pass judgment upon for judging you bes never even looking in your direction to begin with, and showing by your words and your demeanor that, standing far, far, FAR beneath them, you could not even begin to comprehend the dust beneath their toes sufficiently to judge IT let alone anything real.


    — Moriah Conquering Wind · 2008-05-25 22:02 · #

  322. thought this page had a feature guarding against malicious comments. how bes it then that this garbage by "caro" gets posted at all?

    — anon-e-mouse · 2008-05-25 22:04 · #

  323. you bes in denial, Caro. that bes all. don't take that out on moriah with your nasty snarky mouth. it seems pretty clear you have no real relationship with the true and living God or else you would hear His voice telling you not to address others in that despicable fashion. but it goes right along with your selfish sexual fetish which you indulge AND crap all over His Name with by pretending it has anything to do with Him. don't take Moriah's word for it. if you asked God you'd find out the truth. lashing out at Moriah proves nothing except you have a mouth as deceitful as the brain that imagines your kinky sex groove has anything to do with God.

    — Moriah Conquering Wind · 2008-05-25 22:07 · #

  324. Moriah,

    It was not I who said that DD was connected with God, but you. I simply said that I will answer to God for my actions and thoughts, and not to some unknown and apparently ignorant individual who chooses to throw casual insults and personal comments about a subject about which she clearly knows nothing.

    As for your comment about the way I express myself, in view of the the delightful message you posted above, I really couldn't help but laugh at the idea that I am the one with the "nasty snarky mouth". To date your posts, including the rather hypocritical and amusing one which you posted about "malicious comments" in the guise of "anon-e-mouse", have been a series of insults and swear words without substance or meaning.

    Please feel free to post something that invites logical and reasonable discussion and it may be possible for others to respond in kind.

    Caro

    — caro · 2008-05-27 11:39 · #

  325. In any case, just as a matter of interest , how is it that a person who is a professed lover of Satan, and believes herself to be an anti-Christ and a receptacle for demons considers herself in a position to criticize someone else's Christian beliefs? Something of a particularly bad case of the pot calling the pot black, wouldn't you say?

    Caro

    — Caro · 2008-06-02 20:47 · #

  326. DD women are usually highly intelligent. In the bible it is quite clear that the Husband is the protector and should love his wife. She should submit to him and that there is holyness in such submission. DD relationships are usually VERY strong i.e. love, trust, sexual fulfillment, family. Both partners obviously have clearly defined roles. I think a lot of women who want to label DD abuse simply hate men for what ever reason and that is sad.
    My wife knows that any disaster any problem I will stand on the front line and I would die for her without hesitation. My wife submits to me, no one else, and shes my best friend. Feminists are a disease on society and they are now demeaning loving wifes and mothers for breast feeding, embracing there submissive side, and are being told they have no value by other women?!

    My wife is sexier than you, stronger than you, more intelligent than you, more empowered than you, more respected than you, more loved than you, more natural than you. Period. Every time I here women make derogatory comments about house wives it makes my blood boil as I appreciate my wife and so do my children. They are the ones who are 'brainwashed'.
    DD = Common Sense surely as any form of sex is only possible with the womans submission?! How is that not obvious to some people.

    — my wife is great · 2008-09-20 12:13 · #

  327. Bla, bla,bla, some loosers!

    — Me · 2008-09-30 09:06 · #

  328. Hi "my wife is great".

    First, just to set things straight, I'm one of the people on your 'side' of the DD debate.

    However, from your post, it's quite difficult to know whether you have have read the whole discussion since some of the points you have made so strongly haven't really been in contention here.

    I've been here on and off since the outset of the conversation and, as far as I am aware, in three hundred odd messages, not one single person has put down a woman who chooses a career as a housewife and mother over one outside the home, let alone one who prefers to breastfed her child. While most people on both sides of the debate agree that women should have choices and DD should be a consensual and loving arrangement, I'm not sure that it follows that a choice for or against a traditional marriage automatically denotes a greater or lesser level of intelligence.

    It has also been my impression that, although some posters have been unnecessarily rude and unpleasant in their mode of wholseale condemnation of the choice for DD, it has been more out of genuine concern for women they mistakenly believe are brainwashed into accepting abuse from domineering men than from any hatred of men in general. I haven't seen any examples of raging or extreme feminism here, but only the worry that women who are in God's eyes of equal worth to men are being subjugated and treated as lesser beings.

    I personally don't agree with those low opinions of a DD lifestyle choice, but do understand why those who do not understand how these relationships work could see them as a source of serious concern

    Caro

    — Caro · 2008-10-07 22:51 · #

  329. 'Me' said: -

    "Bla, bla,bla, some loosers!"

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    Hi there 'Me'

    Would you like to exapand on this eloquent, well thought out and intelligent point of view?

    Are the "loosers" in question those *for* DD, those *against* DD, or just anyone who isn't too lazy to make a grammatical and correctly spelled comment that actually has some meaning?

    Caro

    — Caro · 2008-10-08 03:02 · #

  330. 'Me' said: -

    "Bla, bla,bla, some loosers!"

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


    Hi there 'Me'

    Would you like to exapand on this eloquent, well thought out and intelligent point of view?

    Are the "loosers" in question those *for* DD, those *against* DD, or just anyone who isn't too lazy to make a grammatical and correctly spelled comment that actually has some meaning?

    Caro

    — Caro · 2008-10-08 03:03 · #

 
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