Seebach Exhibit 7

Oh, that is a good response.

I thought this was another predictable 'don't spank your children' blog, but you are right about spouse abuse. Good post.

My football jock son told me this one.

Q-What do you say to a woman with two black eyes?

A-Nothing you haven't told her atleast twice before.

I sorta cringed, but I know he would never hit a woman. He's a peaceable and gentle guy.

Wow... That's a really good way to put it. I never really thought of pointing out that Christ wouldn't hurt us, and taught forgiveness, not abuse- so why do they think he would support wife-beating. Very lovely idea. ^^;
I don't know if this means much- But you rock at debates.

I was writing a paper on the effects the internet has had on sexual behaviors when I came across Domestic
Discipline I began to read the postings I could not believe what I was reading. I wanted to understand why these woman wanted this life style. I did something I am ashamed of and joined a discussion group. I claimed to be a married woman in a DD lifestyle. I could not believe what I read the so called spankings could do serious damage. One woman spoke of her husband using a rubber factory belt to spank her. Then he finished the beating with a hockey stick. She felt she deserved this punishment.
What scared me even more was that the other woman would say she got what she deserved it was cult like. I wanted to get sick. I tried a few times to make one or two woman see this was abuse I was attacked.
I honestly have to say I began to really feel for them. I realized that anything I said to critisize DD would not be received well. When I wrote a posting saying I would no longer be posting I got emails saying I must continue my DD lifestyle. It began to get very strange.
I decided not to do the paper on DD because it upset me so much. This is a serious issue and needs to be adressed. The children of these woman are learning this is ok. When I asked one about how she would feel if her daughter practiced DD she said it would be fine. Another woman wrote a post saying her 19 year old daughter was in a shelter because her boyfriend beat her up. The rest of the woman said that the fact she had been raised in a house with DD had not effected her daughter. What about boys being raised in home that practice DD. I felt awful about lying except I do not regret that I lied. It has made me see that we need to do something to stop this violence. I just wish I knew how to make them see this is wrong.

Margot,

I find your comment totally shocking. Why? Because I read these discussion on what I understand is the only group that they were posted. The reason I joined the group was much the same as yours, except that I was totally upfront about my reasons for joining and was accepted anyway.

Let's be honest here. Responses to the hockey stick and rubber strap post were diverse and NOT all 'for', and responses to the abused daughter post mostly counselled keeping children of any age well away from what is purely a private practice between consenting adults. There also weren't any posts like the ones you claim to have made, condemning the pratice outright and there wasn't any unpleasantness, let alone any attacks. Similarly nobody wrote a post to say they wouldn't post on the group anymore.

By all means, say you are not in favor of DD, but don't make up stories to prove your point.

Caro,

I might not have been upfront except the protection of womans physical and emotional well being is primary. I find it insane that you would defend this practice. I suspect that you are not being honest about how you feel about DD. So maybe you should do some better research and you will find more sites with scary post.

Caro,

I might not have been upfront except the protection of womans physical and emotional well being is primary. I find it insane that you would defend this practice. I suspect that you are not being honest about how you feel about DD. Also there is more then one group that has open DD discussions. So your research is not quite accurate. I also wonder if you are being honest with us about your Stand on DD.

Caro,
You sound like a DD supporter who is lying on this site. I have been to several sites the minute you object to this life style they flip out. So I was manipulative except I think you are lying. You seem to know way to much about certain post to be just an observer. You are attacking me and defending them. I am only interested in woman having self respect and being physically along with emotionally safe. I am no fool.

Caro,
I may have gathered information in a deceptive manner. It is how I use this informations that is important. I invaded their personal lives which was wrong. That is the reason I abandoned using it in a paper. If it was a goverment agency I would have no problem in the way I obtained the information. So could you please explain why you are defending this practice of emotional and physical abuse.
Margot

Caro,
The more I thought about your response to my post the more upset I became. I am one of those people who go by the biblical phrase if you see a million fish on the beachT and can only save a few why bother. Because it was important to the one you saved. I had a long talk with my hubby last night about what I was trying to accomplish along with saving woman who do not want to be saved. The fish story is an example of something that wanted to be saved. I can put my energy elsewhere(which from now on I am going to do). This population of woman is a minimal percent of woman in this country. So if they choose to live like this so be it. I am not going to get upset over woman who do not want to help.
Margot

Caro,
I cannot understand why you have not responded to my postings. You seemed so eager to infer I was a liar. Now that I have responded to your attacks, you seem to be hiding or unable to respond. I would never have been as agressive as you unless I was hiding something. I hope you have had time to google domestic discipline or female sexuality and see how many DD sites exist. I really would like to know why you attacked me in such a hostile manner. Unless you are a DDer.
Margot

Margot,

I had not responded to your posts because I have been online very little in the past few days and haven't managed to find the time to call in and read the posts at this blog. I'll answer your concerns and commments as best I can right now.

To begin with, I didn't call you a liar - you called yourself one in your initial post when you explained that you had entered a DD site under false pretences and fabricated a story to justify your presence there. Since by your own admission neither your motive in going there, nor the background that you gave in order to infiltrate a private group was true, it's difficult to see it in any other light than as a lie.

As to my having to be a 'DDer' to be on the site or know what was posted there, may I suggest that you submit an honest application to the forum and see whether or not it is accepted? From my own experience, I am 100% certain that you will be accepted as a member there even if your declared reason for joining is solely to do research. I don't know whether you are still a member there or not, but I am, and it wasn't very difficult to go back into the group, locate the discussions to which you refer, read back through them and ascertain that, as was my recolloction, no poster had written anything remotely like what you claim to have posted. Similarly, there was no evidence of any kind of attack on a poster in the course of these discussions. Although, you may have written about ceasing the DD you pretended to practise and not posting on the group any more in a place I haven't read, I wasn't able to find anything about that either. Conclusion - if the posts you claim to have made weren't there - then you never wrote them and didn't get the responses you claim to have got,and it follows that you are not being honest. I don't know what is on other groups of this sort - I read now and then on a few, but I do know that these particular stories were unique to the group to which you refer because the poster herself (the same woman in both cases), told me this herself when we had a conversation in the group's chat room. Conclusion - if the posts you claim to have made weren't there - then you never wrote them and didn't get the responses you claim to have got,and it follows that you are not being honest about your activities in this group. What you have said elsewhere I cannot comment upon, because I haven't seen what you wrote or how people reacted to it.

I have looked back at my earlier comment and, while I can see that I have defended the right of people not to be misrepresented and spied upon, I cannot see where I "defended the practice", of DD, so I assume that makes me fairly sane after all. The rest of the things that you wrote about my defense of DD are purely the product of your own mind and I never said or implied any of them.

Finally, I'll explain why I 'attacked' you, although I don't agree that it was any more of an attack than what you did to the people on the DD site. My reasons for this are simple - you went into a group under totally false pretences, you lied about who and what you were and your purpose in being there. You then 'evesdropped' on what was a private conversation in a private environment. Whether you posted or not I don't know, but you certainly didn't post in the way that you claim to have done, and you definitely didn't get the responses that you say you got. You then came here with a fabricated version of events and posted it as the truth. How anyone could feel enough pride in this duplicitous behavior to post it in a public place is beyond me. As to it being Christian or biblical, maybe you should sit down and read the ninth commandment.

All I am saying here is that, if you want to make a stand against DD then stand up and do it with honesty and conviction as Seebs did in her blog entry. Please don't demean yourself by sneaking around, spying on people, lying and telling tales out of school.

Caro

"I had a long talk with my hubby last night about what I was trying to accomplish along with saving woman who do not want to be saved."

Yes, but you didn't try did you? You just snuck around the site pretending to be somebody and something else, listened in on the conversations and let it all happen. There wasn't even any end to justify the means. It's fine to come here and preach to the converted, but, unless you are totally dishonest with yourself, you can't pretend that you did all this for some noble and sefless motive. If it was me, then I'd be upset at my own dishonesty, not at somebody who sees it for what it is.

Caro

Caro,
I am not a bible beater except I do have some faith and do read some of the scriptures. I posted on a different site then the one you are talking about. I read the site you are talking about along with many others. I told you to put domestic discipline discussion groups into google and you will see not only msn has them. I was not about to repeat any of the private stories they told I was observing behaviors along with noticing how they became more submissive has time went on. I was not planning in any way of exposing them or what they shared in private this is not sixth grade. I am a professional not a person trying to hurt someone. In my training it is obvious that you practice DD with conflict. Or you would not have reacted to what I did in such a hostile manner. If you felt this was abuse you would be has outraged as any sane woman that read these post. The part about children not being involved is crap. Children know what is going on in the house they live in either by snooping or accident they find out.
The way to save these woman is make sponsors stop supporting web sites that host DD discussion groups. Inform other woman that this practice goes on so if they suspect a friend is headed that way help. Do what you can do. If you don't agree TOUGH I do.

Caro,
I am not a bible beater except I do have some faith and do read some of the scriptures. I posted on a different site then the one you are talking about. I read the site you are talking about along with many others. I told you to put domestic discipline discussion groups into google and you will see not only msn has them. I was not about to repeat any of the private stories they told I was observing behaviors along with noticing how they became more submissive has time went on. I was not planning in any way of exposing them or what they shared in private this is not sixth grade. I am a professional not a person trying to hurt someone. In my training it is obvious that you practice DD with conflict. Or you would not have reacted to what I did in such a hostile manner. If you felt this was abuse you would be has outraged as any sane woman that read these post. The part about children not being involved is crap. Children know what is going on in the house they live in either by snooping or accident they find out.
The way to save these woman is make sponsors stop supporting web sites that host DD discussion groups. Inform other woman that this practice goes on so if they suspect a friend is headed that way help. Do what you can do. If you don't agree TOUGH I do.

Caro:
I just re-read the response I urge you to get help. Why are you so concerned about the privacy of these woman if you are not one.

Caro:
I keep rereading your post and I am pissed. I said it was another site so please go look you will find what you are searching for. Also you think it is ok for a woman to be beaten with a hockey stick or told to stand in a corner naked waiting for a spanking? What is your issue. Any woman in her right mind would see what is wrong with this.
Margot

Caro,
You did alot of transferance in your last paragraph. Just like the ladies who say it is not physical and emotional abuse. Why don't you show some guts and admit you are in a dd relationship. You are defending yourself I even think I know who you are. Most probably one of the woman I according to you deceived. So stop lying and admit you practice DD.
Your New Buddie,
Margot

Margot,

Just to clarify one or two things. You can suspect whatever you like about my private life, but that doesn't make it true. The reality, if you are really interested is this. My stand on DD is that I don't practise it myself and I wouldn't want to do the things that these couples do myself. However, I also think that what consenting adults do by their own choice and in the privacy of their own homes is entirely up to them and it isn't for me or anybody else to tell them how to run their lives. I certainly wouldn't like the hockey stick/conveyor belt thing and don't condone it for itself, but since it doesn't seem to have bothered or injured the lady concerned then I really don't see why it bothers you so much. Concerning the child thing, I'm sure that lots of people do lots of unusual things in their sex and private lives that the rest of the household aren't aware of, so I don't see why this should be any different. If you know as much about relationships as you seem to think you do, then you'll be aware that many women are subject for years to REAL physical and emotional abuse without even the closest members of their families being aware of this.

Next, I told you that my reasons for being on that group and others were very similar to yours, except that I didn't make up and embellish a story in order to get into them. (I didn't Google, but followed links from one group to another) I haven't posted on any of them, but on the ones where membership had to be approved I was upfront about my reasons. The only thing I'll admit to is that I've hung around on some of them because the whole thing fascinates me.

Finally, since you obviously don't want to see the real point of my comments, then I'll make them very clear. The issue here isn't DD or whether or not it's abuse. It's the fact that you went into a private community, ANY kind of private community, pretending to be somebody else, and listened in to other people's private conversations under false pretences. Maybe you made a stand against this that I didn't read and maybe you didn't, but this doesn't change the issue in hand. Having done all these totally dishonest and immoral things, you now want to present a MORAL judgement on other people. If you don't see the irony of that then it isn't only other people that you are lying to.

Bottom line - I don't like liars and people I can't trust, and you are both of these things by your own admission. Neither your defensive attempts to turn this round on me, nor your denial to yourself are going to change this. Contrary to what you want to pretend, I respect your view of DD even if I don't agree with it entirely, but I do not have any respect at all for the way in which you formed it.

By all means feel free to try to persuade me otherwise. but, until I see something that proves me wrong then my contempt for these tactics remains.

Caro

Caro:
You underestimate the intelligence of children. They snoop along with listening I have been told things by children that have blown me away. They have found sex toys in parent's bedrooms along with other interesting things. So if a child was to see a paddle or hear a so called discipline session you thing they would not get it, I don't think so.

I admit you made me question my ethics so I spoke to someone who is a reporter about what I did. I also want to mention I would not disclose to him what the subject was on. He said it is done every day to gather information. He also explained it is one thing to write a book such as "A Million Little Pieces" which was delievering lies. To gather information under false pretencing is not a mortal sin. The other thing he said was I am not using the information gathered to write about the topic they had been discussing. I was gathering the information to write about the effects of the internet on people's sexual behaviors. Would you be so offended if I had done this to people trying to seduce young girls? No you would not that would have been considered a good thing.

FYI in some state it is illegal to hit your spouse consenting or not. So our society sees a problem with this practice even if it is in the privacy of someones bedroom. Personally I don't think any goverment should be able to tell someone what to do in the privacy of their bedrooom. Even though I am against DD.

Why I dulged more was the men that came on the these sites saying they wanted a DD relationship. The woman gave advice on how to approach DD in some cases manipulate their wive's into DD. To me that is alot worst then what you accuse me of doing. The woman on these site come from all different kinds of social and economic backrounds one of their sons could marry one of my daughters(God forbid). I have daughters what if I am not around one day and their husband's attempted to manipulate them into a DD relationship.

The other thing is harsh spankings can do physcial damage to the spine and kidneys. Do some research about the damage done from intense spankings. The emotional damage is for life. What if a man made every serious decision in your life then he is gone. Imagine how scared you would be.

The other piece of this DD thing is that DD and DV have similar effects on a woman's life. The detachment from family along with friends because they start to notice and comment on things. Woman become afraid to be with other woman because they might break a rule then a punishment will be given. So now these woman are becoming isolated from other female companionships. The amazing sexual connection they speak about after the spanking in DV this also occurs. I love you and YOU did something to make you deserve the punishment. The man feels he did the right thing. Don't you get it this is not erotic spanking it is abuse.

The reason you are fasinated with this is interesting. You should speak to someone about that piece of you. I am a good person I do alot for other people. So this intense anger you have towards me is abnormal. I could honestly see if I hurt someone except I did not. You also said I lied about things which I did not. I did receive emails from a woman attacking me for ending my so called DD relationship. To be honest with you I liked one of these woman alot I think about her often. I have read her postings over the last few months she sounds like she is loosing her self identity along with connections to the outer world. So you can see it any way you want. I did not hurt anyone nor would I. If woman want to put their business on a open forum people are going to read what they post. I notice the msn group 2 (or what ever it was called)went private. The rest of them should also. People have to be accountable for what they let other people see.
Marjorie

Caro:
You underestimate the intelligence of children. They snoop along with listening I have been told things by children that have blown me away. They have found sex toys in parent's bedrooms along with other interesting things. So if a child was to see a paddle or hear a so called discipline session you thing they would not get it, I don't think so.

I admit you made me question my ethics so I spoke to someone who is a reporter about what I did. I also want to mention I would not disclose to him what the subject was on. He said it is done every day to gather information. He also explained it is one thing to write a book such as "A Million Little Pieces" which was delievering lies. To gather information under false pretencing is not a mortal sin. The other thing he said was I am not using the information gathered to write about the topic they had been discussing. I was gathering the information to write about the effects of the internet on people's sexual behaviors. Would you be so offended if I had done this to people trying to seduce young girls? No you would not that would have been considered a good thing.

FYI in some state it is illegal to hit your spouse consenting or not. So our society sees a problem with this practice even if it is in the privacy of someones bedroom. Personally I don't think any goverment should be able to tell someone what to do in the privacy of their bedrooom. Even though I am against DD.

Why I dulged more was the men that came on the these sites saying they wanted a DD relationship. The woman gave advice on how to approach DD in some cases manipulate their wive's into DD. To me that is alot worst then what you accuse me of doing. The woman on these site come from all different kinds of social and economic backrounds one of their sons could marry one of my daughters(God forbid). I have daughters what if I am not around one day and their husband's attempted to manipulate them into a DD relationship.

The other thing is harsh spankings can do physcial damage to the spine and kidneys. Do some research about the damage done from intense spankings. The emotional damage is for life. What if a man made every serious decision in your life then he is gone. Imagine how scared you would be.

The other piece of this DD thing is that DD and DV have similar effects on a woman's life. The detachment from family along with friends because they start to notice and comment on things. Woman become afraid to be with other woman because they might break a rule then a punishment will be given. So now these woman are becoming isolated from other female companionships. The amazing sexual connection they speak about after the spanking in DV this also occurs. I love you and YOU did something to make you deserve the punishment. The man feels he did the right thing. Don't you get it this is not erotic spanking it is abuse.

The reason you are fasinated with this is interesting. You should speak to someone about that piece of you. I am a good person I do alot for other people. So this intense anger you have towards me is abnormal. I could honestly see if I hurt someone except I did not. You also said I lied about things which I did not. I did receive emails from a woman attacking me for ending my so called DD relationship. To be honest with you I liked one of these woman alot I think about her often. I have read her postings over the last few months she sounds like she is loosing her self identity along with connections to the outer world. So you can see it any way you want. I did not hurt anyone nor would I. If woman want to put their business on a open forum people are going to read what they post. I notice the msn group 2 (or what ever it was called)went private. The rest of them should also. People have to be accountable for what they let other people see. I am sure a million other woman have fell upon a DD site and read in shock. Some have probably done what I did I just admited doing it. You owe me an apology for the attack. I reacted poorly to your attack I apoligize for calling you a smarty pants.
Marjorie

Okay Margot,

Fair comment. I don't agree with your assessment of DD because, from what I have read, except in a couple of so called Christian Forums where I think women allow their husbands to dominate and mistreat them out of a misplaced sense of duty, which is a bit on the scary side for me, it usually seems to be a two way thing without pressure or manipulation on either side. Whether or not it happens, I can't find any references to damage or real harm caused by spankings, either on the DD groups or generally although I grant that this does happen in abusive relationships where beatings as opposed to spankings are given where that is the whole purpose of the exercise. In most cases I don't see any evidence that one person makes all the decision and leaves the other helpless to fend for themselves, because if anything, these couples seem closer and more communicative than many people I know who aren't involved in this. However, you are perfectly entitled to voice your understanding of how it works, and there is no law that says we have to agree.

I'll also withdraw my insinuation that you infiltrated these places for the wrong reason and apologise for that. Without knowing you or who you are, I'm not in a position to judge whether or not your motives were good and the way you explain it seems feasible to me. I can't agree though that just because journalists use similar methods to investigate certain things, that makes it ethical or right. I because I still feel that honesty is the best policy especially if it is something that you feel strongly enough about to want to change. On the other hand, I do take your point that it wouldn't have bothered me if you had done the same thing in order to protect a child or children from some kind of abuse. The fundamental difference for me was that, in my opinion and mine alone, you weren't protecting the helpless in this case, but trying to rearrange what happens between two consenting and mentally capable adults in their private and personal relationship. I see that you view it differently and I respect that, but I just can't see it in quite the same way. I also would protest that you HAVE written about it here, so the argument that you didn't use it doesn't really apply.

I wasn't aware that the particular MSN group to which you are referring was ever public, because I found it via a link on another DD group and as far as I know, it has always been closed to public view.

To conclude, I do accept that your motives were good and that you feel you are doing the right thing, but I don't agree with your reading of what DD is about or thing that these are women who are oppressed or abused through some kind of one sided and cruel relationship.

Caro

Caro,
Thank you I am not the two headed monster. I will not direct you into any one site that is your job. I read a post last week that a woman said this was a resolve to her ADD what if we spanked every child with ADD. They would be very screwed up adults.
Your Budddie,
Margot

Caro,
I googled DD and over 2 million results came up. So to say you knew exactly what site I spent time on was insane. I will not disclose to you or anyone else what site I posted on. If you want you should google research every site and you will find the site after some research time. I need to move on from this I am having a problem doing that when you insisted I am liar about my original post.
Margot

Margot,

The only reason that I associated the quite unusual and specific events that you described with a particular site, was because the lady who posted them there mentioned in that forum's chat room that she hadn't posted them anywhere else. I therefore naturally make the connection that you and I were reading at the same site. This has nothing to do with wanting you to tell me name of that the site or any other,and I have no interest whatsoever in 'Googling' whatever number of sites on the subject of DD or spanking in general.

Next, in your precise words,

"I did something I am ashamed of and joined a discussion group. I claimed to be a married woman in a DD lifestyle."

and later in the same comment,

"I felt awful about lying except I do not regret that I lied."

You see, I didn't need to call you a liar because you already described yourself in this way.

Now, bearing in mind that we know that you and I were reading in the same place, which was the only place on which these events were posted, read your own comments directly following and pertaining to your description of the rubber strap and hockey stick incident:-

"I tried a few times to make one or two woman see this was abuse I was attacked."

Now, although I remembered the other woman's post, I could not recall any post that protested abuse, nor could I remember there being any kind of attack on anyone in the course of this discussion. As I said earlier, I am still a member of this group, so I went back and looked at the discussion in question and found that my recollections were correct.

Again, I looked back at the posts concerning the (same) woman's daughter being abused by her boyfriend, and found nothing to tally with your claim, again directly connected with the subject in hand,

"When I asked one about how she would feel if her daughter practiced DD she said it would be fine".

Finally you say mentioned, although I agree that you did not associate this directly with your activities in that particular group,

"When I wrote a posting saying I would no longer be posting.............."

and I found that there wasn't a post of this type on that group either. Maybe you posted that elswhere and never meant to sound as if it took place on that specific group. Chances are that, if you did, I wouldn't have seen it because my reading of this type of group is limited to a very few.

Again, I reiterate the fact that I accept that your motives were only good and that you did not go there or anywhere else with the intention of invading people's privacy or doing them harm, but quite honestly it was your own words that led me to draw the conclusions that I did. If you hadn't made all these claims in the first place then I wouldn't have felt compelled to reply.

Since you raise the new subject of ADD and make the connection with the spanking of children with that condition, I'll comment on that too. The answer is in your own words:-

"I read a post last week that a WOMAN said this was a resolve to HER ADD" (The capitals in the words "WOMAN" and "HER" are mine)

You see, the woman in question who was presumably a consenting and competent adult said that it was aresolve to HER ADD - she did not say that it would help anyone else's, let alone that of a child. In fact, I think that you will find that pretty well all of these groups have a strictly enforced written rule that the discipline of children MUST not be discussed under any circumstances because such forums are intended exclusively for the discussion of adult matters between CONSENTING adults.

Since I agree with you that this whole subject has dragged on too long, I'll assure you that, unless you chose to prolong it by introducing new elements to the conversation, I will not post any more comments on the subject now that I have said all there is to say.

Regards,
Caro

Caro,
Forest Gump said it and you are it "Stupid is as Stupid Does". I am a 48 year old woman with Dyslexia along with a Masters degree. If I was spanked every time I screwed up I would be a hotel maid today. I don't care what that woman thought was good for her ADD she is implying to other woman it is OK if your spouse spanks you for making a mistake. Know what lets just end special education in this country when woman become adults their husbands can spank them to make them learn. Any one stupid enough to think this is a way of curing their short falls needs help.
You continue to insist I replied to the woman who posted on MSN I DID NOT I POSTED TO DIFFERENT WOMAN ON ANOTHER SITE AND WAS BLASTED. I do not feel as badly as I did when I made my original post on this site. A matter of fact I am a very sensitive person I allowed the woman who attacked me to make me feel badly. I have since read other anti DD sites if I stopped one woman from getting involved in this abuse I DID THE RIGHT THING.
As far as the physical thing spinal injuries for woman over 40 is a major health problem. So how you can say a serious hard spanking cannot do damage is ignorant. I know you must be in a DD relationship so God Speed to you.

Regards,
Margot

Caro,
You are so stuck on dissecting every word in my original post. I posted over 100 times on that particular site. I exchanged emails with 2 woman one emailed me a photo of herself and family. She told me without my asking all about her husbands job. She started sharing without any inquiries from me. That is when I realized that I had to stop this entire situation. I felt sorry for her she had no friends. When I said I was ending my so called DD lifestyle she flipped. I even offered to remain her friend(I knew she needed someone to talk with) she would not stop sending me pro DD info. I asked her to stop sending DD information that is when she attacked me.
For you to be so defensive of this lifestyle atleast practice what you preach be honest. You are in a DD lifestyle or you have multiple personality disorders. From they way you write it is obvious you are well educated. I am challenging you to be honest about where you are coming from.

Caro,
Why is that you have dissected along with manipulating every word in my inital posting? The situation I mentioned was something I read I never said I responded to that posting.
I will explain my relationship that I did have with 2 women from DD threads. One was mellow her attitude was if you are not into DD anymore that is all right. The other woman was a different story she was VERY LONELY and personalized that I was ending DD. SHE ONLY HAD INTERNET FRIENDS FROM HER OWN ADMISSION(SHE STATED SHE DID NOT LIKE ANYONE IN HER TOWN).I said we could remain email buddies just lets not discuss DD. She started sending me all of this DD propaganda from other sites I asked her to please stop she attacked me. A few weeks before I had said no more of this DD posting she sent me a photo of her family I was shocked I even mentioned to her that she should be careful about sending out photos on the internet or sharing what your spouse does for a living.
What I was looking for initally I had gathered. I had also decided that I emotionally was over my head I was not going to write this paper. I had wasted a year gathering information that I was not going to use. I want to make this clear I was never going to repeat what they posted I was examining how involved they became in these relationships with people they met in discussion groups especially groups that had a sexual components. I will admit I became personally attached I stayed longer then I should have. I found myself clearing my computer because I was afraid if my husband found out he would insist I get help. I liked these ladies they made me laugh I also was concerned for them. I realized I was doing exactly what I was researching having unhealthy relationships on internet discussion groups. I started to become addicted to reading their post along with detaching from friends. The other part that was different is DD had no place in my marriage so I was making up stories to stay connected.
when Katrina hit the Gulf Coast a self absorbed lady in the group started sharing her recent vacation while the rest of the country was glued to the TV. It was a wake up call that these women are so obsessed with this lifestyle they are detached from the world around them. I had planned to say good-bye when the lady who sent the photo had a death in the family. I wanted to be around for her she went to this discussion for support she had no one to talk with. I had started to make hints I was ending DD. I almost felt at one point I had convinced her to stop DD. When she seemed to be back on track I wrote I would be leaving. This particular woman wrote to me saying how upset she was I was ending DD. I said we could remain friends without any DD discussion. Within a few days she started emailing me postings about DD from other sites. When I asked her to stop, she flipped out and said some nasty things. I would never hurt any of these woman they are doing a good enough job on their own along with their spouses.
I am not scared for the educated,mature woman who want this lifestyle It is the 18 year old uneducated vulnerable woman I fear will get hurt. I have also come to accept I cannot do a thing to change the situation. Other sites exist that denounce DD so other people feel like I do let them attempt to make changes. I am drained this comes from the fact I became personally involved(a lesson I will never forget). I can direct my energy to other things that are not so draining along with not being an uphill battle.
You have got to be in a DD arrangement or you would not be so defensive of DD. I did not use the information I gathered so why are you so defensive. Unless you suffer from multiple personality issues. You have managed to annoy the hell out of me with your disection of my inital post. I posted it after I read a post written by the woman I cared about. I just see her so over the top with DD. Do you care about women being abused or just ripping me apart?
Margot

To anyone who reads the prior postings I owe an apology. I personalized Caro attacks that I abandoned the inital issue which is the promotion of DD.
Freedom of Speech is a right that our founders built into the constitution. It must be protected even though it is being challanged by things that did not threaten society when it originated.
On many of the DD sites it sounds poetic that allowing your husband to control you will make the relationship wonderful conflict will disapear. So many woman live in relationships with conflict that they are desperate to do anything to make it work. Others could call Domestic Violence Domestic Discipline he is doing it to make me a better person. If it is against the law to promote DD on the internet the next thing we will not need a search warrant to enter a home.
Women came together for the sufferage movement which allowed them the right to vote. Some woman said it was stupid woman should not vote. Women still won we sure do vote, our votes count. Then we had the Equal Rights Ammendment same thing many women said it was stupid the message got across. My point is we need to teach girls that in a relationship you cannot allow physical or emotioanal abuse to guide what makes a relationship work. We also must insist that putting any content on the internet that promotes physical punishments towards women is wrong. Some of these sites make it sound poetic just like Hitler did with his propaganda against the Jews. Women who want to live this life should be on private spaces(that is their constitutional right). I know I am not the only woman left that feels so stronly about stopping the promotion of DD. So to all that agree with me keep your eyes open if you suspect try to help.
Again I apoligize for spending so much thread time going back and forth for personal feelings.
Margot

Excuse me for butting in here, but I am a woman in a DD relationship, and I would like to point out something that is, as far as I can judge, true of the majority of couples who practise DD, it is the woman who asks for this kind of relationship. I've been into spanking all my life, it was only after discovering the Taken In Hand website among others that I began to consider the possiblity that spanking could be used as 'discipline' rather than being purely erotic. Bringing the subject up with my husband was embarrassing, but he seemed to grasp what I wanted without too much difficulty, and took to it with ease, and indeed enthusiasm.

Again and again I read messages from women on TIH and other sites who are frustrated because they can't persuade their husbands to do this, or the husbands try but aren't consistent about it or whatever. They compain their husbands don't spank for things they've said they'll spank them for, that they don't get spanked hard enough or often enough, that they don't feel he's really in charge. Every time I post a comment about my husband having laid down the law about something, or spanked me or otherwise taken charge of the situation, I get wistful comments from women saying things like "You're so lucky! How can I get MY husband to do that?"

In the groups that I belong to, the overwhelming impression I get is that it is women who are the driving force behind starting these relationships.

I am an intelligent, highly educated, happily married adult woman. I have an equally intelligent, highly educated, adult husband who respects me, cherishes me, loves me and is completely devoted to me and our marriage. At my request and WITH MY CONSENT, my husband has the option available to him to discipline me should I fail to maintain certain standards of behavior that we have BOTH discussed and agree are appropriate and in the best interest of our relationship and the marriage we intend to stay in together for the rest of our lives. The discipline of choice, again at my request and with my consent, is most often a spanking.

Let me say that again; a SPANKING. And for those who may need it defined: I am bent over, my bottom is bared and my husband will use his hand or apply a paddle or leather belt to my bottom with the intention of inflicting the pain one would expect to feel when struck on the BOTTOM that way.

The objective is to give me consequences for behaviors we've agreed are inappropriate and that undermine the general(and genuine) harmony and peace in our relationship. Again, he does this at my request and with my consent.

Does this make me an abused wife? Emotionally manipulated or controlled? Immature or in need of psychiatric counselling? It would seem that there are many people who believe it does and to me, that is very sad. They don't know me or my husband yet feel very comfortable making that call.

I could go into all the reasons why I consent to being spanked by my husband but I, regretfully, realize that certain people have no real interest in the "whys" because once they hear the word "spanking" their minds refuse to wrap around anything other than some pre-conceived, often incorrect notion that spanking an adult woman on her bottom is tantamount to beating her senseless. So there is no point in trying to "explain" that personal, private decision made between two loving and committed adults.

What I will say is that I actually DO understand why those who cannot or will not see the decision to use discipline within marriage as a personal CHOICE are up in arms once they "hear about it".

Frankly, there are many other options available to every married couple when it comes to dealing with issues such as disrespect, dishonesty, discourtesy or disagreement in their marriages. Which, by the way, my husband and I employ MORE often than discipline. The simple fact of the matter is, that for ME,(and women like me) a spanking is a tangible and effective way to hold me accountable to a standard of behavior that I WANT to be held to. The fact that I WANT to be held accountable by the man toward whom my behavior (good, bad or indifferent) has the most impact on is not only logical but a testament to my trust in and commitment to him.

Does my husband enjoy spanking me? No. Why does it do it then? Because I've asked him to hold me accountable in that way, because IT WORKS FOR ME and it works for our marriage. Period.

THAT should be all that matters to people like Caro because the decision to spank was made between two consenting adults within the confines of a loving and devoted marriage and it is practiced privately and discretely between the two of us within our home.

Last time I checked, as an adult woman, I have the right to make that personal choice and, frankly, it scares me to death that people like Caro are taking it upon themselves to try and convince the masses that they are better equipped to make those choices FOR me based on their OWN personal distaste for my decision.

What's next? Will people like Caro decide what is "appropriate" for my sex life too? What if I "admitted" that I ocassionally enjoy being tied up during foreplay? Would that then be deemed by them as "potentially dangerous" (OMG! What if there were a FIRE?!) and, because its personally unappealing to THEM, start making noise about how I need to be "protected" from that too?

I suggest Caro go back and infiltrate the private, adult DD on-line communities she claims she got her information from and treat the women there with the dignity and respect she claims she believes they deserve by asking a few HONEST questions about their choices. I guarantee she will find a host of honest, intelligent, emotionally stable women who are QUITE CLEAR on what defines "abuse" and as intolerant of it's practice as she is.

Unless and until that happends I can only hope that she, at least, recognizes that she is condeming ONLY what she doesn't understand and her contention that she is only trying "help these poor women" is condensending, patronizing and more than a little insulting.

Which, by the way, is why women in genuine DD relationships formed on-line PRIVATE and ADULT communities; so that we can have a forum where we are free to share our choices and experiences without fear of lables, criticism and unsolicited opinions and condemnations from judgemental, pious people who think they are better able to think FOR us than we are.

How ironic that people like Caro claim to want to protect rights and freedoms but contend the only way to do that is to REMOVE individual choice and replace it with one THEY deem more suitable.

I would like to make a correction to a response to this thread I posted recently.

I directed most of my comments to "Caro" and those like her. I mistakenly confused the authors of the posts/replies that were exchanged here between "Margot" and "Caro".

As I understand it now, "Margot" was actually the person who entered the DD online community under false pretenses and it was the postings made by her that motivated the majority of my own post. I apologize to Caro and applaud her defense of adult women having the absolute right to choose what will or will not occur within the confines of their personal and private relationships.

You women who practice DD are so brain washed that you believe every single thing that you read that is pro DD. It is similar to Hitler in Germany, He made ethnic cleansing sound poetic. I made my point and my stand clear on DD I do not believe that giving one adult giving another the right to discipline her will do anything but degrade the other person. Some woman feel they need to be degrated because of past behaviors. People can go onto pro marijuania site and they will never read it is bad for your lungs. So do you think Taken in Hand is going to be anything but a bunch of DV's making this abuse sound poetic. To all of you women that promote this DD garbage I hope one day (if it has not already happened) you do not have a womens life you helped some way come to a violent end. You are playing with fire by promoting this crap and you don't even see that or feel any responsibility for what you are promoting. That could be the connection you have with a need for DD you do have a problem with doing the right thing so you feel DD will make it allright. Go speak to a clergy, profesional any person that could provide you with the help you need. You even said it your self you have to go to secret places to talk about this. That alone is a statement I am doing something that goes against the grain so I must sneak around. Have fun hiding it must suck.

After rereading both of the responses you did not read my postings fully. I have no judgement on what you do in private except you promote this pratice (not life style emotional & physical abuse is not a life style being gay is a life style). Some of the women you promote this crap to are living in unhealthy relationships. Taken in Hand makes money from other sites that it promotes. The site they promote sell paddles and spanking material. So don't you think that they are putting lipstick on the pig and calling it a princess.

Majorie,

It's patently obvious that the only way you can manage to maintain that abnormally high opinion of yourself is to do whatever you can to insure that everyone around you is convinced they have no hope of acheiving the incredibly high moral ground on which you seem to believe you stand alone. Even if that includes attacking, demeaning and insulting an ENTIRE COMMUNITY of people for simply not agreeing with your self-righteous and biased opinions.

To even suggest that a truly physically or emotionally battered woman might "stumble" into one of our on-line communities and succomb to the "brainwashing" by us "cultish" women, and find some justification with which to validate or escalate her own genuinely abusive situation is not only absurd but perhaps the most pious and self indulgent statement you've made to date. And it has convinced me that you are a far too unsatisfied and bitter woman to bother with anymore.

Oh my God I have no high opinion of my self I make mistakes can be over judgemental etc.. What I am saying is this information should not be made easily available to every women that has a interest in spanking. I spoke with a women whose marriage was in deep trouble she also had a spanking fetish. She started reading a DD site thought this was the perfect solution. Next thing you know she is being emotionally abused. She had to leave the marriage. What I notice is you use pious and self indulgence in your writing so I know you have deep religous roots. In a religous community this could seem acceptable. I am saying keep it private if a woman is looking for a DD community she should have one. If some poor misquided women needs to find a way to help her marriage she should not be looking for a DD solution she should find a marriage counsler.
What all of you ladies are finding so upsetting is I am not agreeing with DD or your fundemental beliefs so who is pious? Am I wrong for not allowing my husband to spank me for not obeying his rules. He would not let me spank him for being a bad boy. Even if we do fight we will eventually talk then make love so what is so bad.

I had truly decided to avoid going head to head with again because I saw no real point in trying to make someone understand something they really have no interest in understanding. However, your tone in the last response compells me to give this one last shot.

You wrote:

"What I am saying is that information should not be made easily available to every woman who has an interest in spanking"

My response to that is simply:

Then who exactly gets to decide WHICH women are emotionally stable or mature enough to access information regarding spanking? You? Me? A committee of licensed professionals who have previously determined her to possess the appropriate mental and emotional faculties to be permitted to explore that interest safely and sanley?

YOU were able to locate information on spanking. What hoops (as an adult woman living within a free-society who, I assume, believes herself to be mature and capable of intelligently researching and forming her own opinions on the subject) would you have wanted to be required to jump through in order to obtain such information?? Can you honestly say that, having met the criteria of being an ADULT who lives in country that guarantees you the right to pursue such knowledge, is a freedom you want revoked simply because there are other people who find the subject distasteful?

You cited an example of:

A woman you had contact with her explored her own interest in spanking while in the midst of a failing marriage, only to have her CHOICE to pursue discipline within her marriage "backfire" in that she ended up emotionally abused and had to leave the marriage.

My response to that is simply:

Incorporating discipline with a marriage is NOT a choice that is appropriate for every couple across the board. And if you were to go back to a couple of those boards and pose a few honest questions, I GUARANTEE that you will find the VAST majority of "DDers" WILL tell you exactly that. Furthermore, it is extremely rare to find someone there who would advocate anyone "blindly" or impulsively incorporating discipline into their relationship as a fundamental principal of an HOH/DD relationship is that discipline is exercised within the confines of a LOVING and committed relationship in which the wife completely trusts her husband to take on the authority to discipline her responsibly, thoughtfully and with the best interests of her as his primary motivation. The fact that the woman was admittedly in the midst of a "bad marriage" clearly indicates that trust and committment within the marriage was already damaged (if not gone)for one or both of them. Based on my experience, most "DDers" may have advised her to adopt a more submissive and/or obedient attitude toward her husband FIRST in an attempt to repair the damage done due to loss of trust and/or commitment. If the woman had admitted that her husband was even mildly emotionally or physically abusive (which he most certainly had to have been on some level if he so easily became outright abusive once she granted him the authority to discipline her) she would have been strongly advised NOT to incorporate discipline along with her decision to try to be more obedient and/or submissive unless and until the trust and commitment to the marriage was fully restored for both of them.

I readily admit there are as many "extremist" in the DD community as there are in any other faction of people. For example, not every adult in the country abuses alcohol, but does the fact that there are some who don't intelligently and responsibly drink a legitimate basis for deeming that ALL consumption of alcohol is "wrong" and presents a danger to society at large so it should be banned or restricted beyond the current requirement that one must be an adult in order to have access to it? Of course, not. That is, of course not unless you want to open the door for ALL individual adult freedoms to be mandated by someone else.

You wrote:

That you assume I have deeply religious roots and that my choice to live under the authority (and discipline) of my husband must be "acceptable" within a religious community.

My response:

You are correct in guessing that I am a relgious woman. You are also correct in assuming that within my faith and the community of fellow believers, my choice to submit to my husband and to respect him and his authority in our marriage is not only "acceptable" but an expectation. However, your implication was that the church must support or encourage our choice to incorporate discipline into our marriage which is based on the Scriptural commands that Husband's love their Wives and Wives respect and submit to their Husbands. There is where you are wrong.

Yes, I admit again, there are extreme "religious" sects of people who use Scripture as their basis for DD. Frankly, those people are DEAD WRONG. God neither forbids nor commands discipline between a husband and wife. That choice is a personal decision that I believe God will honor either way if that decision is exercised within the confines of marriage based on His will.

You wrote:

"If some poor misguided woman needs to find help for her marriage she should not be looking to DD as the solution, she should find a marriage counselor".

My response is:

Again, who exactly gets to decide this if not that woman? And WHY shouldn't she consider DD along with as many other options she can choose to try? (Unless, as I previously stated, she is unable to trust her husband with intelligently and lovingly taking on that responsibility?) I would venture to say that there are as many people who never consider spanking as there are that would. For the ones who would, choosing to submit to discipline from one's husband is as legitimate to them any other option BECAUSE they view it from a personal pre-disposition or belief in a system of accountablity within marriage that includes submitting to loving discipline.

What I really want to convey is that it takes an exceptional man to understand the gravity of his responsibility if his wife consents to his use of discipline within their marriage. And it takes an exceptional woman to consent to that exchange of power and so fully trust in her husband to discipline her out of love for her. THAT is the type of marriage most "DDer's" I've had experience with have. Marriages based on love, mutual respect and devotion to one another.

Do I "fault" you for not submitting to discipline meted out by your husband. Of course not. The VAST majority of DDers would agree with me as I contend that discipline should be a mutally agreed upon option within any marriage and it hinges on the woman's CONSENT to be disciplined.

What I "fault" you for, Marjorie, is that the thought of a husband spanking his wife and her consent to that practice is CLEARLY distasteful to you but instead of either trying to understand DD or, on the other hand, simply admitting it's unthinkable to you and leaving it at that, you've chosen to attack the women for whom DD has truly proven to be a practice that works within their marriages by publically writing them off as specifically "brainwashed" and "cultish", and implying they are niether strong enough, smart enough or mature enough to make that decision carefully, thoughtfully and reasonably within their own relationships.

Furthermore, you went on to accuse those of us who choose DD to be actively pursuing the masses to "join our cult". You portrayed us across the board as supporters of abuse who encourage every woman we meet to disregard her own ability to distinguish whether or not DD is a legitimate choice for her. You gave us no credit for supporting the woman who intelligently choose it or for encouraging the women for whom it doesn't work to discontinue it.

And, most of all, I "fault" you for making all of those claims based on what you claim to be your experience in on-line DD boards. Had you truly explored those sites, you would have found a host of intelligent women who simply share the same lifestyle choice and gather together to share experiences, advice, support and knowledge about DD.

We don't actively recruit women to our boards but we don't discourage those who come to them with a genuine interest and sincere desire to explore this choice.

Go back to any one of those boards, Majorie, and read over the threads. You won't be able to count the number of times you see "DDer's" express to one another their opinion that, based on what they have posted about discipline within their relatinship, their experience is one of abuse and not legitimate and loving DD. We look out for each other. We have no reservations about saying it outright if we think someone is being abused under the "guise" of DD. I dare say, we're actually better able to "spot" an abuser than most BECAUSE we do know the difference between loving discipline and outright abuse.

You will never see DD for what it is to the woman who chooses it. You will never be able to convince me that my choice to consent to it is wrong. I can accept that and agree to disagree on the topic.

But you seem intent on wiping our communities off the internet (and the face of the planet if you could, I suspect) and that's not something I can "agree to disagree" with. We keep them as "private" as possible but because you've decided that there's that potential for the "wrong" woman to wander into one of our chatrooms and adopt this lifestyle for herself...only to have it end badly or tragically for her, that is justification enough for saying we have no right to congregate on line...period.

Do you also believe we should close down every bar in the country to protect the alcoholic from himself too?

So if you're truly interested in keeping our communities "private" why don't you start with refraining from inflitrating them and them publically "exposing" them in forums like this.

Have YOU considered the possibility that some poor misguided woman may have stumbled upon THIS board and, based on the number of posts/responses YOUR opinions have generated, she now finds herself facsinated with the subject and will further explore it on her own and MAYBE EVEN CONVERT? How will you be able to live with yourself?

I am not a bible beater never will be a bible beater.
I will adress your response later it is so full of holes that it should have sunk.

Marjorie, do think perhaps you might be able to stop repeating yourself? You've basically stated the same things in all of your posts. Which shows us all that you decided a long time ago how you felt about this issue, and there is no room for growth. I'm not saying that you should start agreeing with the opposing view, but one would think that you would develop new insights to support your views, and defend against the many different arguments that have been brought against you. Oh, and my I suggest that you learn a new word today? Empathy.

As an afterthought:

I'm sure I will be given quite the verbal lashing by you Marjorie, as you seem to overeact to all of the criticisms against you. When I don't respond, please know that it is only because I stumbled on this page through a google search, and I have no intention on revisiting. So say what you will, be as brutal as you wish, because it will go undefended. Hey, at least you'll win one!

To Surfin'the net:

Why is it that people who are coming from a weak position always look to be critical of people with strong view points. My points are valid, I stand by them.
I am not about to change an entire Cults tradition's or value by stating my belief's. This entire thing got started between Caro and I going head to head. If women want to be degrated by DD that is a choice they can make. The point I have been trying to make is they should stop using poetic tones when promoting it has the marriage saver. Many women want to save a marriage and could give this power to the wrong man. These women could become victoms of violence. That simple I don't know why so many responses since last month when prior to that no one had posted to my thread. Is this becoming a cult hang out?

I had to laugh at myself because I can't help but admit that I am actually (and morbidly) curious as to what nonsense you will actually post regarding your most recent cryptic post that stated:

"I'm not a bible beater, never will be a bible beater. I will address your post later it is so full of holes it should have sunk".

Let me save you some energy:

Because you made reference to "bible beating", I have to conclude that you intend to attack my clearly-stated PERSONAL belief that God neither commands nor forbids discipline within marriage.

Please don't risk an aneurism on that topic. It would be the very DEFINITION of "Delusion of Grandeur" for you actually believe that you can dissect my personal faith and actually LOOK justified doing it. Let's just agree to disagree on what we EACH personally believe God says to us.

As far as the "so full of holes" comment: Now, THAT'S the comment that has me so morbidly curious.

I've re-read my last post and think I've managed to address everything you believe is so full of hole so...

Please...go ahead and punch holes in my PERSONAL experience with DD and people who practice it. (I had NO idea you were privy to MY personal and private experiences so DO tell....)

Take a shot at my defense of the personal freedoms free societies afford their citizens like the freedom to pursue knowledge in areas of personal interest, or the freedom to congregate with likeminded individuals.

I can't wait to see you try to make me look stupid for contending that among those freedoms is the right to PRIVACY. Both personal privacy as well as the right for adults to congregate within private adult internet communities.

Hhmmm...what WILL you say to attack my opinion that any adult person living within one of those right-to-personal-freedom societies possesses the absolute right to explore the practice of DD and to form her own opinion of whether or not it's a practice personally appropriate for her?

How will you argue my opinion that YOU (or me for that matter) have no right nor any invitation to even suggest a mandate that makes one persons OPINION on ANY subject more valid than someone elses?

And, finally, I am just GLUED to my laptop, waiting to see what "evidence" you can produce to negate my contention that on line DD communities do not actively pursue or attempt to recruit the masses into our "cult"...seeing as the vast majority of them are clearly labled ADULT, PRIVATE and/or Membership Only sites.

Oh what the heck, as long as I'm here, I would like to add something further to that thought:

Would you consider the FACT that we have no choice but to trust that anyone who actually MAKES it onto one of our boards was ALREADY pre-disposed toward the subject of DD enough to pursue membership access?

(We COULD be wrong there, of course, believe it or not, it's actually been rumored that there are people who have LIED about their intentions/interests and entered our communities under false pretenses in order to elicit information...information, by the way, that was intended ONLY for the likeminded individuals within the community...but I digress...)

In any event, for you to argue that our "cultish" activity lures poor, defenseless woman into the trap of domestic violence is (forgive my bluntness here) a TOTAL LOAD OF CRAP.

How can you possibly fault us for concluding they entered our communities of their own free will and in pursuit of their own personal interests...which (Oh my!) are SUPPOSEDLY the SAME interest we share? That is what the DD Boards were designed for - A PLACE WHERE LIKE-MINDED PEOPLE CAN CONGREGATE AND EXCHANGE EXPERIENCES.

(And in case you missed it: "like-minded" is the operative word here).

So, my friend, YOUR posts are actually the ones that are so full of holes they should have sunk based on the following:

We agree that neither You nor I have the right to dictate what other adults CHOOSE to do within the privacy of their own relationships. So your opinion against DD and my personal decision to practice it is simply that: a difference of opinion. Period. And that's where it should have ended.

You have said over and over (and over and over and over and over and over) again that your "point" is ONLY that DDer's should (and I quote you here)

"stop using poetic tones when promoting (DD) as a marriage saver".

Okay...IF that is truly the only point you have been trying to convey here, I GOT IT so PLEASE, try to pry open your mind to, at least, hear my point:

If someone enters a PRIVATE, ADULT, MEMBERSHIP ONLY on line DD community, we are absolutely justified in concluding that they either believe as we do OR are actively pursuing information with which to form an opinion for themselves.

If we are "promoting it as a marriage saver" based on our own personal experience that DD actually HAS helped improved the majority of our marriages; we are "promoting" it WITHIN the confines of our PRIVATE,ADULT, MEMBER ONLY, LIKE-MINDED (there's that word again!)community...so my question for you is....SO WHAT??

Are you now actually going to say that what is shared within our PRIVATE, ADULT, MEMBER ONLY community should be monitored and approved by some entity other than those within the community? Who exactly do you think should have that job...you?

If you don't agree with DD why in the world would you join the group in the first place? (Well...we already know why YOU would...I was thinking in general...)

And one last thing, Marjorie, that totally blows your "point" full of holes: you wrote in your May 10th post (and I quote you here):

"If a woman is looking for a DD community she should have one."

Okay...

So what are we debating about here if not the simple fact that your sensibilities were assulted because you CHOSE to inflitrate a private DD community...a community you yourself have stated we should have....and are ultimately ticked off because, frankly, you just didn't like what you saw there?

Is it possible that you've FINALLY realized that, in a poor attempt to mask your distaste for DD and make it appear as though you were leading some noble charge to protect the innocent, you went ahead made all this noise about how DD boards MUST be "kept private" and now see that YOU YOURSELF have helped make them public by posting your opinions about them on a PUBLIC, NON-RESTRICTIVE internet board such as this one?

Feel free to continue to call us names, insult us and pass your judgments and then lable your admittedly deceptive and sneaky intentions "honorable" if you have to in order to sleep at night but, I for one, am done listening to you...what was it someone recently said here? Oh yeah....something about putting lipstick on a pig and calling her a princess...

Majorie, there was one question you specifically asked that I just realized I neglected to address. You asked:

"Why so many responses to my post in this thread.....has this become a cult hangout?"

As to why your post to this thread has generated so much activity recently...Well, frankly, the reason seems pretty clear to me but I'd be happy to spell it out for you:

1. You admittedly lied in order to gain access to a private on-line discussion board.

2. THEN you proceeded to misrepresent yourself there for the sole purpose of gathering information intended not for someone with no tolerance for DD (like you) but for the like-minded members who actually belonged there.

3. THEN you returned to another PUBLIC forum (this one) and misrepresented some of the information you dishonestly gathered by violating the exclusivity of that discussion group and, to add insult to injury, outright FABRICATED additional "information" in order to lend bogus credence to your dishonorable and wholly self-grandizing post.

4. Obviously, word got out about your post which, had you NOT so blatently lied about your "experience" within our community, would probably have done nothing more than cause a collective groan among us that, yet again, another close-minded and uninformed judgement had been passed on our lifestyle choice.

5. Since you DID blatently lie about your experience there, it compelled Caro to launch a TRULY honorable defense (of any online community in general) by simply calling you out on the parts of a specific thread you deliberatly misrepresented by taking it out of context and further compounded by lying AGAIN about a series of phantom posts you supposedly made but, after rigorous research, were nowhere to be found.

(Those would specifically be the posts you claimed to have made within the group in which you said announced your intention to "quit DD" and the bogus responses you claimed to have been bombarded with from the "cult" intent on "brainwashing" you into our way of thinking).

And please don't try to claim again that there's no way to know which board or which thread you "cited"...we both know which site it was.

So to answer your question:

Did you really believe that you could lie about your experiences and, in the process, intentionally attempt to asassinate the character, morality, intelligence and motives of an ENTIRE, private community of people and not risk being exposed for the liar you yourself have admitted you are?

For goodness sake, Marjorie; you lied and you got caught. Deal with it.

Wouldn't it have been so much easier to have simply stated the truth; you discovered that DD discussion board, you were facsinated enough by the subject of spanking to gain membership, you were appalled to learn that there was more to it than just a "spanking fetish".

If you had then acted on your compulsion to offer your OPINION about DD and just admitted that your simply don't approve of it, you would have been taken far more seriously and treated with the common courtsey most reasonable people simply offer to someone with an opposing view.

That's all I (and Louise) tried to do in our initial post to you: present (our personally experienced) "Pro" to counterpoint your "Con" in an effort to encourage a balanced debate on the subject of DD...a subject YOU opened for discussion in the first place.

All Caro tried to do was expose your lies in order to defend, NOT DD, but a fundemental principle.

Surfin' the Net simply tried to encourage you to intelligently and thoughtfully ADDRESS the arguments made in response to your posts rather than continue to repeat the same lies that had already been exposed or continue to resort to insults rather than the basic consideration of someone else's point of view.

Haven't you noticed that there are no responses to your posts that support your vicious rantings? That's just an obeservation and not to say that your opinion about the practice of DD isn't valid, although,let's face it, this thread has LONG since ceased to be about "DD".

So, go ahead, blast me again but before you do, you may want to ask yourself "How's that working for me?"

First of all I was raised in a Catholic home with a mother who went to mass everyday along with saying the rosaries. My mother died holding her rosary beads. I believe in many of the things I was taught about religion some I do not. I am what you would say is a liberal Catholic. I do not preach the bible nor judge people by the scriptures. That is why I am not a bible beater.
My father was also a devoted Catholic so yes I had alot of religion growing up. My father would have never disciplined my mother because she would have flattened him like a pancake. That being said they ran a business together for 30 years and died loving each other. My father once told me that in a marriage a good wife holds her man up. My mother did that she did that by sometimes saying things my dad did not want to hear her say. He also held her up he knew what she needed to make her life work he tried to give her (not materialistic)emotionally what she needed to function. They had fights all normal people do from each fight they would make up sometimes things would even change for the better.
That to me is a normal marriage something you DD women should be living. It must be very odd to not be able to say something because you might be punished even if it would help a spouse. I don't call a DD relationship a marriage I consider it a form of master slave ownership.

Stop seeing yourself or your community as that important because you are not. I am not that big either so deal with it, or get over it. In reality we are a very small part of the population of the United State. Right now we are stuck on a subject that most people do not think about. They are thinking about how to pay their mortgage, kid's college or health, or other important things. For my own personal reason's I got stuck wanting to hold to my stand on this DD crap. I cannot stop crazy people from being crazy so how can I make you see my point. It is similar to how people view pro choice either you are for it or against it. A woman has the right of choice on many issues.

Listen I could have posted on all kinds of womens Libs sites about DD I did not do that. I looked for a site that was anti DD and I vented my feelings. You ladies have no other life except for this DD crap which connects you to a man which is your entire self existence. I did not post on a site that was pro DD I posted to an origianl posting against DD. What I think you ladies really do hate is I can say what I want and do what I want. No man is going to tell me to go stand in the corner or what ever it is that you ladies do to show respect. What respect does a man have for a women that is willing to submit to him like a silly child?

Listen I could have posted on all kinds of womens Libs sites about DD I did not do that. I looked for a site that was anti DD and I vented my feelings. You ladies have no other life except for this DD crap which connects you to a man which is your entire self existence. I did not post on a site that was pro DD I posted to an origianl posting against DD. What I think you ladies really do hate is I can say what I want and do what I want. No man is going to tell me to go stand in the corner or what ever it is that you ladies do to show respect. What respect does a man have for a women that is willing to submit to him like a silly child?

A question for the ladies on my tale. How do you feel about a womens right to choice? I guess privacy only applies to what suites your beliefs. You go around protesting at abortion centers even becoming violent. You are hipocrits to say I am sticking my nose in a place it does not belong. If that is not the kettle calling the pot black.
The other thing is I have read on certain sites women telling men how they can manipulate their wife into DD. So none of you are with out SIN. You could just end this by not responding. Why is it that you seem to not be able to move on. Another site that thinks DD is a real issue is Sherri and Bob maybe you should spare with them.
Good to GO.

Margot/Majorie/whoever,

Absoloutely NOTHING about the way your lifestyle is "bad" about that, because it is the way that you and your husband, as responsible adult human beings have chosen to live. By the same token however, it is equally the right of another couple to choose to live their lives in a different way. If you really want to preserve the true principles of equality, freedom of choice and speech to which you refer in an earlier comment, then you cannot conveniently restrict it to those sections of society with whom you agree, and censor and silence the rest. To use your own analogy of the Nazi regime, Hitler started his campaign againdst the Jewish people with exactly the type of censorship and subtle control that you advocate here, and, when you consider that that particular exercise culminated in the murder of several million people, it's a pretty frightening prosepect.

Incidentally, did you know that children in totalitarian regimes like the Nazi one are often taught to listen and isolate certain words in the speech of adults, which, if taken in separate context might imply subversion or rebellion against state principles. Some of the remarks you have made in your posts are particularly worrying in this respect because you too seem to have a marked propensity to make snap judgements based on very little evidence and comprehension of the use of contextual language. For example, because I defended the right of all people, and not those with whom I happen to agree, to have freedom of speech and choice, you pulled the label 'DDer' out of your proverbial hat and tried to use that as a weapon of dismissal. When Adult Woman posted, you created for her an entire' lifestyle' scenario, in which she is a person of deep religious conviction involved in a controlling 'community' which promotes the use of DD, All this from her use of the words "pious" and 'self-indulgence'. Oh and, by the way, 'being gay' is a state of being and is NOT a "lifestyle". You can BE gay and not lead a gay way of life. If you look the word up in any dictionary you will see that 'lifestyle' refers to the way in which a person lives or chooses to live. You can, for example, have a 'jetset' or 'bohemian' lifestyle, or you can lead a Christian lifestyle, or you might decide to to paint all your walls white, throw out all your furniture, and live a simple lifestyle. On the other hand, it is highly unlikely that today you will choose to adopt a vegetarian lifestyle and tomorrow, or when you want a change, you'll adopt a gay lifestyle instead. In a manner of speaking, even if you live in abusive relationship, which, as far as I can see, is about as far removed from the consensual nature of DD as it could be, it is still a way of life and therefore a 'lifestyle'.

What you do not seem to comprehend when you utilise the principles of free speech and equality as an argument is that it is not the DD community who are trying to curtail these privileges, but you yourself. If all of society does not have the same rights then there IS no freedom or equality. There is also the disturbing question of just who is sufficiently 'qualified' to have this type of power over other people's private and intimate lives, and where this type of control should end. What if somebody in a position of influence decides that they don't like the way I make love with my husband, or they don't like what I talk about with my best friend? Are they going to put microphones and cameras in my house to make sure that I conduct my private life in the way that meets somebody else's idea of propriety? What penalties are there going to be if I fight for the same freedom of choice and speech that you claim to want every person to have?

Another worrying factor is that, although you have quite clearly explored the question of DD in unusual depth for someone who claims to have an academic interest only, and have comminicated with a number of people inlvolved in DD relationships, you still choose to represent what you must know to be a very small minority of bad DD relationships among hundreds of successful and happy ones, as if they were the norm.

I am in complete agreement with you that DD is not a 'magic fix' for every bad marriage and relationship. Similarly, it can be utilised by unscrupulous and violent men as a tool and/or justification for abuse. It has this in common with a million aubsive relationships and bad marriages in which DD has never been a factor. I found your illustration of a bad DD relationship to be particularly interesting because it follows the pattern of my own first marriage in the sense of verbal abuse but there was never any DD or spanking involved. I would say that, in your acquaintance's case, the problem wasn't with the DD or spanking fetish but with the relationship itself, and these were just the factors that served to bring a hidden problem to the surface. I am also rather intrigued by the fact that you appear to believe that the way to cure a 'fetish' is to deny people the opportunity to talk about it and pretend that it isn't there. As for women who want this being 'childish', let me see if I have this right - if an adult woman and her husband decide privately between themselves what they want from their relationship, then that is to act like a 'silly child''. However if YOU deny them that freedom of choice and power of adult decision by telling them how to run their lives, then it's okay and it isn't childish? Hmmmmm..... there has to be something slightly odd in that logic.

Should DD people 'promote' what they do to people in general? No - they should continue what they do now and discuss these matters exclusively in private forums and meeting places with people of like mind. That way, people who have a genuine and honest interest in what DD entails can read, learn, and decide whether DD is right for them. The alternative is for people to go into such relationships 'blind' and perhaps find out that it isn't for them the hard way. What won't work is for people like you to pretend it isn't there and hope it will go away if you stop people talkiing about it.

" How do you feel about a womens right to choice? " Well I think that every woman should have this - even the ones that don't agree with you.

" I guess privacy only applies to what suites your beliefs". Iif nothing else, you have proved admirably that this is how YOU regard privacy.

"You go around protesting at abortion centers even becoming violent " Oh my goodness, where did you dig this completely unrelated subject up? Although of course, if I wanted to, " go around protesting at abortion centers" shouldn't I be allowed to under the principles of freedom and equality that you keep telling us that you are defending? Or maybe I shouldn't be allowed to express my view because it doesn't tally with yours. In your eyes there may be a difference between the two curtailments of freedom, but in mine there is not.

"The other thing is I have read on certain sites women telling men how they can manipulate their wife into DD." Sorry my dear, but the wife still has the final choice provided that you don't take it away from her. People can manipulate all they want, just as you have manipulated the facts for your own convenience here on the blog, but an intelligent and adult women will not accept what she does not want whether you want to believe that or not.

" So none of you are with out SIN". Following your logic in an earlier thread I would have to conclude from your use of the word 'SIN' that you are a person of strong religious conviction who has been manipulated by her church into believing that DD is wrong.

"You could just end this by not responding. Why is it that you seem to not be able to move on".
Now let me see - this is a thread in which there are almost 50 posts by a number of people and, upwards of 30 or more of them were made by you. Could it be that YOU can't move on unless you get the last word?

'Hypocrisy? Well I'm not even going to touch that one in regard to your behaviour..........

Caro

Caro:
You lied when you said you were not in a DD relationship. Your reasons may not have been as deceptive as mine except you lied. The next thing you did was get all the chuch gals to join in. I did not go to my book club, ladies night out or other social groups to gain strength for my argument. I am a big girl and I wear my own pants or skirt.
I am assuming you have a college education, I have come to this conclusion because you have excellent grammar & writing skills. I am also assuming it was a Christian College so your thoughts have been influenced by deep routed Christian values. Your family was most probably deep routed Christians. So they had alot of influence on your thinking. I was raised Catholic except I left the church when I was 16 because I did not believe that Christ existed. My parents did not like the idea but they accepted what I felt. It is probable that in your family this would not have been accepted. So to say my thoughts are from my religous upbringing is not accurate. My thoughts and convictions are my own. I have been exposed to many things in my life so I have had the oppurtunity to come to my own conclusions. That includes working with emotionally and physically abused women. So I own my thoughts no one else does it is a neat concept you should try it.
Where you live being gay might not be a life style, where I live it is a life style. Tell the couple down the street who just adopted their second child that they are not living a lifestyle. They would love to differ. So we obviously come from two very different places (thank God), we will never agree.
The thing that has me stuck is I said that private boards should be allowed.
1. I quoted originally from a board that was private. This is not the board I had the relationship with the woman on. I apoligized for repeating the story it just blew me away that this woman was physically treated that way.
2. I did have a relationship with a woman I met on a OPEN BOARD no membership this board is associated with a respected provider. This is what I said should be stopped.
3. I will never agree with you ladies, You will never agree with me. So why are we continuing down this path this could be the endless hole.
4. I did go back to believing in Christ. I thank God I had parents that allowed me to explore life and come to my own conclusions.
5. Why do you need this kind of discipline? No one in any of your posting as ever clearly described why this is so important.
6. I want state being Gay is a lifestyle. DD is not something you can walk around many places and people will say that is acceptable. Yesterday when I was checking out at the store they asked for a donation for abused women. I think many people would think this is wrong.
You are so draining and yes I usually do get the last word.

Boy oh boy. More and more assumptions. First, no I am not college educated. I have worked full time in various levels of the same job since I left school at eighteen years old. My education was entirely and exclusively secular except that it took place long enough ago for Christian-based daily school 'assemblies' to be the norm