Today's funny spam


2006-02-28 21:44
Comments [1]

Got this today, found it amusing:

I’ve visited today, and really would like to talk about
partnering up.
My name is (redacted) from (redacted).com a US top general search
We are a profitable and debt free company since 1996 and listed on
Dunn’s and Bradstreet.
You can check out our stats on Alexa to see our global reach and


I thank you for taking time to read this email and hope to welcome you
as a new (redacted) partner! This is a one time email as we found your site
off of Thelist or Google and thought this partnership would be a great

So, I should “partner” with them because they’re open spammers, whose search engine is so awesome that even they don’t use it.

Peter Seebach

Comments [1]


Please phish our customers, 'k? thx! lol


2006-02-26 14:43
Comments [1]

Citibank sent me something.

I think.

I got an offer advertising my new “ThankYou™” member card. I am, it says, to visit their website, If I sign up there, and put in information about Citi-related credit card accounts, they will give me “points” which I can redeem for rewards. You know, like every other membership program, from airline miles and on.

But there’s an issue here. Who runs this? Why should I enter information about my Citibank card into an account run by… Someone else? And if it’s not someone else, why isn’t it somewhere in

Honestly, I feel that this ought to create liability for Citibank in the event that their customers are successfully tricked into giving out account information. They are actively communicating to their customers “you should enter identifying information about your accounts with us into a form run by some other site”.

Maybe Citi really does run this one, but since there’s not even a hint of a relationship in the name, what’s to stop Phisher Phil from creating a new site, “”, and telling people that their existing thankyou accounts are moving, and can they please reenter all that data? … Nothing, that’s what. Citi has opened the door to the notion that account data from them can and should be entered in other web sites.

To make it scarier, the letter implies that, for instance, you can use this new site to apply for other Citi accounts, such as a bank account with them. So, they really want you to enter all sorts of identifying information on someone else’s site. And to just assume that the site in question is legit.


Peter Seebach

Comments [1]


Making sense of Fred Phelps


2006-02-25 18:42
Comments [6]

Everyone uses Fred Phelps as an example of conservative Christian bigotry and hatred. I even used to; he’s certainly walked the walk for many years.

But now that he’s organizing pickets of the funerals of non-gay soldiers so he can tell everyone that it’s God’s wrath on America for tolerating gays, you have to wonder. The connection seems tenuous at best; millions of people are dying, and many of them are in some way connected to America’s tolerance of gays. If anything, in fact, the military contains one of the highest densities of people who would be genuinely offended if you told them they were supporting or tolerating gays.

So, why do this?

The answer, I think, lies in the simple observation that Phelps, although disbarred, was an attorney for many years. Many members of his “church” are also attorneys. And, whaddya know: They have sued people for hitting them.

There’s an old joke about a man who says he’s “in the insurance business”, then runs out into the street in front of a car. I think Mr. Phelps may have figured out that, if you can say things that make people angry, you can make a lot of money. If you can’t get the gays to hit you (and, after all, most gay people seem to view him with a sort of exasperated sense of futility, rather than any kind of real anger, these days), what should you do? You should find a community that is more likely to hit you.

Key goals:
1. Emotionally overwrought. Playing the funeral scene was a good idea.
2. Accepting violence. You want people who are basically emotionally okay with the notion of violence. You’re not gonna get very far picking on Quakers hoping to rack up easy money.
3. Likely to react badly to accusations of gay-friendliness.

And there you have it; the sweet spot is military funerals. Members of the military are already being treated like shit all around; they come home from being underequipped and overextended only to get yelled at over policies they have no influence on. If you can pick on their families, you can probably get someone to pop you one.

I used to think Phelps was for real. Then I saw a man who has openly advocated the systematic slaughter of gays dismiss Phelps as a liberal plot. And I realized that this guy is so far out there that even would-be murderers have to repudiate him. Which is more likely; that he has managed to get together a group of people this crazy, who are so absolutely out of touch that they can’t find any better way to attack gays than to attack the US military? Or is it that he, and the multiple attorneys in his immediate family, have found a way to make a living at picking fights?

Seems to me that, as is so often the case, the money has gradually taken over the operation. Maybe early on they were just trying to collect for expenses to fund their “work”, but now? Now their behavior makes no sense at all unless we look at it in terms of the simplest and most universal motivation: It pays well.

My sympathy goes out to the families who are having to deal with this in their time of mourning. Just a word of advice; don’t hit them. It’s probably exactly what they want. Indeed, I think they’re banking on it.

Peter Seebach

Comments [6]


Yay! Free of Sprint's clutches at last!


2006-02-25 13:09
Comments [1]

Okay, so, long ago (1997, in fact), I decided that it was about time for me to consider a cell phone. I ended up going with Sprint PCS, one of the early competitors in the then-new digital phone market.

It didn’t suck, anyway. The phone worked in most of the areas I cared about. First incoming minute was free, which saved me a lot of hassle. I didn’t use the phone very often, but when I needed it, it was there. After a couple of years, the phone failed, and Radio Shack gave me a free on-the-spot upgrade to a newer model. That worked too.

So, up through maybe 1998, 1999, I was pretty happy. Then things started going downhill.

Sprint used to have a data service, called “wireless web”, where you could use your phone as a 14.4kbps modem. It worked. $5/month to have it, and it just used regular minutes. That was fine. Slow, maybe, but workable. I used it a lot. Around this time, they started letting you add a phone to an existing account, and share minutes, so I got my spouse a phone. Everything’s fine so far.

But when my dialup phone was starting to get old and unreliable, there was a problem. See, they didn’t have that service anymore. Or maybe they did. Every Sprint rep I spoke to gave different answers. Some said it was still available. Some said it was being phased out. Many of them said that it was technically impossible on Windows.

What was interesting here was to note that they never said they didn’t know; they made firm pronouncements of authority, even though it’s obvious some of them were wrong.

Anyway, this is about where things started going badly. At one point, I spent a fruitless 20 minutes searching Sprint’s page for a number to call to reach customer support. There wasn’t one listed anywhere I could find. The closest I could find was a form to fill out to request a callback. I used a customer service form to complain… And got back an absolutely surreal response saying that they understand I want them to call me (which is not what I said), but that they can’t, but I can call them at the following number… Great. It’s actually the answer I want, but it’s presented in a stupid way.

But the real pain doesn’t start until the Treo 600. The Treo 600 is the most unbelievable piece of crap I ever had to deal with. Mine was replaced five times during the year it was under warranty. Not cheerfully or willingly; one time they insisted on me sending them $600 for a replacement phone that they would credit later when I sent in the old one. The real, serious, problems started the day I bought the phone.

There was a $150 rebate offer. The instructions for the phone system to verify eligibility for the rebate didn’t work. I spent over an hour on the phone with Sprint customer service, being given runarounds, before I got them to put me on hold for fifteen minutes so they could try it and confirm that it didn’t work. (You were supposed to enter a number at a prompt. Whether or not you even began hitting digits, half a second later you were told the number was invalid.) Eventually they said to just fill out the form and send it in, and they’d cover it if it didn’t work. Obviously, it didn’t, and after a few more hours on the phone a couple of months later, I got the credit.

During this time, I was trying to use the Treo. It’s intended to be a PDA/phone, based on PalmOS. In theory, you can use it as a PDA and as a phone. Unfortunately, the PDA side is insanely unreliable. I am one of many users who consistently had a problem where, after being in use for a month or so, the PDA would stop working, and if you reset it, it would just loop forever on the reset screen. Worse, even if you were smart enough to have backups, your recent backups would all be corrupt. Rumor has it there was a database that would overflow. In practice, if you simply didn’t use the PDA features, you could use the phone.

Now, that may not be Sprint’s fault. However, there were software updates for the Treo 600 that every non-Sprint vendor provided, and Sprint didn’t, and it’s hard not to think that this may have been part of the situation.

Now let’s get to the part that was Sprint’s fault. The Treo 600 can be used as a wireless modem. You can hook it up to your laptop and get internet access over it. Sprint does not sell this service. Not for any price. If you want to buy network access through Sprint, you are required to buy a PCMCIA connection card and use that. They say that works only with Windows; of course, they say that about the Treo, too. Sprint’s attitude towards Mac and UNIX users is pretty much one of unbridled contempt. (Note that the connection card, being PCMCIA form factor, can’t even be put in most Mac systems.)

Why won’t Sprint sell this service? It works. The internet is full of pages describing the process. Two companies were selling commercial products to make it happen. Sprint refuses to sell it. They won’t accept money for it, and if they catch you using it, they will cancel the network access service plan that makes it work.

I asked them, multiple times, about this. I found out that other companies were selling it for $75/month. I asked Sprint if they would, for $75/month, let me use my phone as it was designed. They said no.

Up to this point, Sprint’s behavior is mostly merely totally incompetent. It gets worse.

edited to add this, 3/3/06. I forgot about this one.
A while into our experiments with multi-phone plans, they announced a new feature that would give us essentially unlimited calls between phones on the plan. So we tried to set that up. And they did, supposedly. The first month we used this, we got charged for many hundreds of minutes of calls between phones which were supposed to be on this, because they somehow set it up wrong in a way they couldn’t explain. In theory they were to refund the difference, but I think they refunded rather less than they were supposed to; I just didn’t feel like dealing with it anymore. It never happened again, but it was still ridiculous.

A while back, we got a new phone added to my account, bringing me to a total of four lines. We were going to have the product replacement coverage on this, because it was going to live at a college, but decided it wasn’t cost-effective. I asked them to move that coverage to my Treo, which was nearing the end of its warranty, and which was a $600 phone. (Well, $600 to buy. They once, while still charging $600 for Treos, offered me $75 trade-in for it.) They said they would do this.

A few months later, I noticed that the plan was still on the phone I didn’t want it on. I called to request that this be changed. They refused, stating that the plan couldn’t be moved to a phone I’d had for more than 30 days. I told them that, in that case, it was useless, so could they please cancel it? At this point, they revealed their secret: Although I’d told them six months earlier to cancel the plan on that phone, they were keeping the money.

This crosses the line from incompetence to fraud.

At that point, I decided to become an ex-customer of Sprint. I did some research. I started looking at competitors. One of the competitors was T-mobile, and I had another occasion to do business with them, so I tried it. I bought one month of access to their wireless hotspots. It worked fine, but I cancelled after the month because I didn’t have any use for it at home; it was just convenient while at a convention once.

Well, I got billed for two months. So I wrote to say “hey, I thought I was getting one month”. They wrote back The Letter. Nearly everyone has gotten The Letter; it’s the document which proves you really are in the wrong. They busted me fair and square; I cancelled one day into the second month.

Now, the thing I normally do is complain a bit, with some hope that they’ll reverse the charge; I would sort of expect them to. I didn’t, with T-mobile, because The Letter finished off with the explanation of how they were reversing the charge.

That’s right. Where Sprint admitted it was their fault, and charged me anyway, T-mobile proved (correctly, I have to admit) that it was mine, and reversed charges anyway.

Yesterday, my Sprint contracts were all definitely up. It took me about half an hour to verify this. The Sprint customer service system hung up on me when I made an error entering a phone number. No option to retry; it just told me that I needed to call from my phone and hung up. I eventually got to someone, though, and found out my contracts were up.

I called around to T-mobile and asked questions. Would they sell me thethered internet? You betcha. $20/month. We only have cables for some phones in the store, but you can get other cables if you need them. I decided to move to T-mobile. I went to the store, picked out some phones. 5 of them, in fact. We began doing the account setup. Unfortunately, there’s a block on my credit report, and Trans Union won’t authorize a credit check without calling me… At home.

So the guy in the T-Mobile store immediately offered me a $50 discount on the phones to make up for the hassle. … Okay. So, running around happens, I get the phones. The new phone (a Motorala v360) is designed the way it shoulda been all along. Rather than a weird proprietary Palm/Handspring USB interface, it shows up as a standard USB modem (once you select “data/fax” connection in settings). It works with the instructions I can find on any of a dozen web pages.

The setup isn’t perfect. There are a few things that didn’t work perfectly on the first try:
1. My account wasn’t properly flagged for the wireless internet stuff. This took a call to customer support. I got disconnected by the voicemail system with weird errors, so I just hit 0, and got a real person. The real person forwarded me to tech support. There was a delay, but instead of listening to horrible music for half an hour, I was able to leave my name and number and get a call back. The person who called me back got the wireless working very quickly; rather than insulting me or arguing, she accepted my claim that it “probably” wasn’t my UNIX system, but that maybe my account wasn’t set up, and fixed that without hassle. It was working within five minutes.
2. It turns out that T-mobile’s shared phone plans can’t have area codes from multiple states, so my mom’s phone has to either change numbers or be on a separate plan. (It’s not a problem that Rah’s phone is physically in michigan, as long as the area code is local, which it is.)

But… Even if my mom is on a separate plan, we can have five T-mobile phones for about the same we were paying with Sprint, possibly less. Unlike Sprint, they are willing to sell and support the feature of connecting my laptop through the phone. The service agreement to get decent prices on phones is one year instead of two. The service staff have not obviously lied to me, and have admitted when they weren’t sure, and even gone and done research. T-mobile staff have gone out of their way not to rip me off.

In short, I am a very happy camper. In a couple of days, when the new phone reaches my mom, we can port her number over to it on a separate plan, and then all will be well.

To be fair to Sprint, a great deal of my frustration just has to do with how unbelievably sucky the Treo 600 is. I didn’t even get into the nightmare of needing to use two cables to connect it to a laptop to get a reliable network connection…

Peter Seebach

Comments [1]


You win.


2006-02-22 01:23

Until such time as the comment spammers give up, or comment-spam-prevention improves, there are no comments on my blog.

In a typical day, I was getting hundreds of spams. Hundreds. Worse, at any given time, maybe fifty a day, maybe more, make it past the filter to sit there in the moderation queue, so I go to the blog, and of course I have to filter comments before I start writing, and I see this:

Hello admin, nice site you have! JeyZee Collect all 15! 2006.02.21
� good site, good short contents of the good work. I have loved your site :D Haree Go Virginia! 2006.02.21
Very interesting site and beautiful design !! Thank. Bill The secret joys. 2006.02.21
Very interesting site and beautiful design !! Thank. Haree Hard Drive Failures ‘R Us 2006.02.21
<a href=‘http://domain removed/toons/mom-son-cartoon-sex. html’> http://www.asiansho… TnFARutwDj That Cenk Uygur thing 2006.02.21
Yo have nice site, admin! keep up good work man! JeyZee Weird Stuff, Vol. 2: It’s not that the faucet is in the wrong place, mind you. 2006.02.21
Very interesting site, beautiful design, thank. Aron I’m getting old. 2006.02.21

The formatting’s screwed up, but really, it doesn’t improve with formatting.

Regular spam’s just as bad. If I wait five minutes, and check my mail, there will be spam in my mailbox — and this is after three layers of very aggressive spam filtering!

I think the underlying problem here is lack of ethics. I was talking to someone about the importance of respecting privacy, and he explained that people don’t mind junk mail as much as they claim to, because hey, sometimes they buy stuff. I think this misses the point rather significantly. If it’s all about sheer pragmatism, hell, just steal from them. They might not notice.

We have developed a culture in which respect for others, honesty, and other such concepts are casually dismissed as outmoded, and in which sheer efficiency is prized above all. Amazon’s frivolous patent lawsuit, filed by a company that openly asserted that their patent portfolio was “purely defensive”, is defended by people who make insulting and sarcastic remarks about how self-righteous it is of me to expect Jeff Bezos not to openly and brazenly lie.

Is the usage “defensive”? Amazon sued Barnes & Noble, demanding an injunction against B&N using a technology similar to theirs. Was B&N at the time suing Amazon over a patent? No. Was the lawsuit used primarily to defend against other patent lawsuits? No.

To quote The Register:

Bezos says that business methods patents are particularly bad, but Amazon has filed patents on a wide variety of business methods, including affiliates programs, payments, data presentation and and even gift giving. In an open letter five years ago, Bezos called for a public comment period, but users non-publication requests that prevent the US Patent and Trademarks Office from disclosing the application, such as when it filed to patent a weblog interface.

In his defense, Bezos argues that patents are defensive and should never be used, and illustrated this when sued rival bookseller Barnes and Noble for infringing on its notorious One Click patent.

In fact Bezos hates patents so much he has applied for 15 in his own name of which eight have been granted; as patent-watcher TheoDP noticed recently, one Amazon patent was granted after five rejections over four years. And as patent ’399 shows, he was busy filing before had sold a single book.

So… Do we just not care? Are lies and malice par for the course? Is it no big deal that useful things like email, and blogs, are being shut down by spammers? There are too many people who have been forced to give up. “Filtering” isn’t really much of a solution; while it cuts down on the personal stress, it still leaves networks and servers massively bogged down under what is quite simply a prolonged DDoS attack. That the attack mostly doesn’t completely kill the target systems doesn’t much change things.

And you know whose fault it is? It’s the fault of all the people who, while claiming they are opposed to massive and systematic frivolous abuse of the patent system, keep buying from Amazon. It’s the fault of the people who buy things from spammers, and the people who don’t pay any attention to dishonesty because “everyone does it”.

If you have ever thought that it might be nice for people not to habitually lie to you about everything from whether or not someone is in the office today to whether or not they are selling a product new or used, you might give some thought to the various enabling behaviors that are society has come to expect.

Oh, and if you want books? Buy them from Powell’s, or any of the dozens of other independant bookstores that have mysteriously been able to sell books without filing frivolous and disruptive lawsuits.

(During the writing of this message, I received 8 new spams, and that’s not even counting the roughly 80% of mail server connections we drop before they even start to talk to our server.)

Peter Seebach



Source finished!


2006-02-16 01:39
Comments [1]

I sorta spaced off mentioning this. See, every time I come to my blog, it’s buried in unapproved comments, 99.5% of which are spam. I’m lucky to get one comment per two hundred which isn’t spam. Spam has random plausible names on it, and comment bodies like “Pending Very interesting site, beautiful design, thank.” (attributed to “Nelly”). I have to skim it and delete it ALL to find the one comment from an actual person.

And speaking of probably unlawful communications which are really annoying… Source Lending may not be sending so many.

Lemme quote:

Source Lending Corporation, its officers, agents, and employees, and those acting in active concert or participation with them are hereby enjoined from knowingly sending unsolicited advertising by facsimile transmission contrary to Minn. Stat. Section 325E.395 or 47 U.S.C. Section 227 and enjoined from knowingly causing others to do so on its behalf.

Oh, and they paid $11,500, with no confidentiality agreement or nothin’.

From when they got a serious lawyer to the settlement was maybe a month or so, after something like two years of Mr. Fiddlefuckin’ playing weird games and sending surreal letters.

Peter Seebach

Comments [1]


How to do backlash like an adult


2006-02-15 09:09
Comments [2]

So, as you’ve doubtless already heard, there’s been some anger about cartoons allegedly offensive to Muslims, and a large Iranian newspaper decided that the best way to get back at the Danes for not having clear policies against offending people was to, get this, have a contest for Holocaust cartoons. Because, you know, Denmark is almost entirely Jewish, or something.

Anyway, it was only a matter of time before there was an Israeli response. It is the Israeli Anti-Semitic Cartoon Contest.

“We’ll show the world we can do the best, sharpest, most offensive Jew hating cartoons ever published!” said Sandy “No Iranian will beat us on our home turf!”

I think this pretty much summarizes the culture gap that’s happening here. This is the kind of thing that doesn’t so much end a fight as just make it clear how stupid the fight is. The contest founder gets a special award for mentioning that one of the prizes will be “…the famous Matzo-bread baked with the blood of Christian children.”

It’s worth noting that, when Arab newspapers reprint the famous claim that Jews bake bread with the blood of Christian and Muslim children, we don’t generally hear about embassies being burned to the ground and mass riots. One can only hope that over time more considered responses, such as responding to ludicrous assertions with ridicule instead of blind rage, will become more common.

Peter Seebach

Comments [2]


I love Linux, but I hate it.


2006-02-01 01:51
Comments [2]

This’ll sound strange coming from someone making a living using and writing about Linux, but it’s damn hard to take it seriously sometimes.

Fedora Core 5 “development” for PPC is, in principle, able to run on my G5. In principle. After a day spent downloading images for the more stable release, only to find that they can’t even boot on a quad G5, I grabbed the development ISO. Then I downloaded about 6GB of RPM files and such.

I run the installer, I point it at my web server, and it gets to the point of retrieving a file… Then says that, apparently, the boot CD and the downloaded files don’t match.

Can I…

  • Order it to go ahead and use the downloaded files, which might be newer? No.
  • Get to a shell? No. (Or at least, not through any mechanism I could discover.)
  • Get any information about the basis for the allegation? Version numbers, for instance? No.
  • Use the boot CD for any purpose at all other than trying to install the exact set of files it thinks it wants to install, which it will not identify for me in any way? No.

I feel like I’m running Windows. The installer is absolutely bulletproof IF EVERYTHING WORKS. There is no escape. You can’t hit Ctrl-C and have the installer drop you into a shell. You can’t explore and get more information. You can’t use the same 30+MB boot image for both installation AND recovery. I don’t get it. This is supposed to be Unix! It’s supposed to let you do what you want, not try to think for you.

So, I went and downloaded a NEW copy of the boot disk, in case they were in the middle of an update between the boot image download and the RPM download. Same error message.

No override. No escape. Maybe I have the wrong image, even though I have the development boot image and the development RPMs. There’s no way to find out what’s happening. Come on, people! Surely, sometimes the installer doesn’t work.

What I have right now is a single tree, downloaded from the Fedora servers, for which the boot image and the corresponding files don’t match. There is nothing I can do. I am, once again, left wondering how anyone ever gets Linux to do anything. I would be totally fine with an option that lets me TRY the install, even if it “doesn’t match”. I’d be willing to give it a go. I would like to be in the land of Unix, where you are given enough rope to hang yourself.

(For those wondering why I don’t just hit Ctrl-Z: It doesn’t work on the Mac version. There is no hint of any way out of the installer setup into a shell.)

Edited to add: I tried again with a different version of the file. This one just gives “unable to retrieve the install image”. It does not say what file it was trying to retrieve. It does not give an error code of any sort. It doesn’t indicate whether it got a file, but thinks it’s the wrong file, or couldn’t get a file, or what. This is the kind of error message I expect from a System 7 Mac.

Peter Seebach

Comments [2]


Domestic Discipline: Abuse by any other name


2005-12-11 00:29
Comments [330]

Someone started a thread on a “lifestyle” called Domestic Discipline. This is the term used for it by some Christian groups, although similar practices are found in some Muslim communities.

Basically, it’s systematically organized and socially approved wife-beating.

People who know BDSM folks in Master/Slave relationships might think of this as a seriously dysfunctional Master/Slave relationship, with a lot more cruelty and genuine anger in the beatings, and no real consent.

Lemme give you examples. One girl was talking about how her father is beating her sister regularly because the sister might be masturbating, so the father comes into their room at night and beats her. Wives who fall short in any way are beaten. (Spanked, sometimes.)

This is justified, in the Christian groups, by the Biblical verses suggesting that husbands have authority over their wives.

I posted on the topic, and I don’t know that the post will survive the rigors of editing at that site, so I repost here for posterity. I was responding to someone who told everyone to leave him alone, because he’s not hurting them.

It is hurting us. Whenever any person harms another, it hurts all of us. It is an injury to the conscience to be asked to stand by while another does harm. It is an insult to Christ to compare His relationship to the church to that of a violent coward who, not content to beat up on someone too weak to defend against him, must lie about the Bible’s contents to give the illusion of a moral authority so that the weaker party isn’t even allowed to try to defend.

Christ does not beat us. Christ forgives every offense, sometimes before we even ask.

If the husband’s relationship to the wife is that of Christ to His Church, the husband should not only refrain from beating his wife; he should make no record of the times when she hurts him, simply forgiving all and loving without condition or exception.

There is no point in sugarcoating this or pretending that it is anything but what it is. It is abuse, and it is cowardly abuse. It would take more courage to kick a puppy, which after all might bite back. It would show more love to kick a puppy, which may not be smart enough to understand the difference between good attention and bad attention.

It is bad enough to behave in a way which is in every way more despicable than kicking a defenseless puppy for no reason. But to describe it in terms that imply even the most tenuous connection between the love of Christ for His church, and this behavior, is blasphemy. It is not “like” blasphemy, it is not “almost” blasphemy, it is blasphemy.

Would you know the one connection that exists between this systematic and ritualized abuse, and the love of Christ?

It is that He can forgive even this.

That is the connection. Go you now and seek that forgiveness.

Peter Seebach

Comments [330]


In All Things, Love


2005-12-10 00:20
Comments [2]

So, I started hanging around at another Christian BBS. It’s called In All Things, Love, and it is a site run by Christian principles, not just a site run by Christians. No doctrinal purity test for membership. No 12-page rules documents. Just people who have agreed to be nice and treat each other decently.

Worth a look if you’ve ever wanted to see what Christian doctrinal discussions look like when they aren’t busy condemning each other to ever more horrible punishments.

Peter Seebach

Comments [2]


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